BONUS | Welcome Back Jim

Hoogerwerf:

Welcome to Language of God. I’m Colin Hoogerwerf. And I’m here not only to welcome our listeners to the show, but also to welcome back our regular host, Jim Stump. Listeners have heard your voice a bit already this year but we haven’t actually officially said welcome back. So Welcome back!

Stump:

Thanks. You’ve been taking care of everything ok? Nothing broke while I was gone?

Hoogerwerf:

No, I think we’re in good shape. 

Stump: 

Good to hear.

Hoogerwerf: 

But where were you, anyway? You could have at least left a note.

Stump: 

I guess I’m more of a sneak away in the dead of night kind of guy.

Hoogerwerf: 

But seriously, I’ve been starting these podcasts these past few months saying you were on sabbatical, but what does that mean exactly?

Stump: 

Well to lots of people, especially outside of the academic world, it sounds like a vacation. And there’s definitely an element of a welcome change of pace from the daily grind. But the point is to work on something different for a while that is valuable to the organization, and is not the kind of thing you’d normally be able to do.

Hoogerwerf: 

And these come around only once in a while, right?

Stump: 

Right. I’m in year number ten at BioLogos now, and this is my first one.

Hoogerwerf: 

Ten years. That’s a long time. So here’s my chance to ask the host questions that you always ask. Is this what you always thought you were going to do? When you were a kid did you say when I grow up I really want to be a podcast host for a non profit science and faith organization? 

Stump: 

Am I really that predictable? When I was growing up I wanted to play football. I don’t think I could have told you what a non-profit organization was until after graduate school, and I don’t think there were podcasts until well after that. So, no, this is a second (or maybe third) career.

Hoogerwerf: 

OK, back to the sabbatical. 

Stump: 

Right. So my job here has always had some component of writing, usually for the website, and I’ve edited a couple of books that were directly related to our science and religion work here. But honestly, since this podcast started a few years ago, there hasn’t been much time in my schedule for writing.

Hoogerwerf: 

Where are your priorities?

Stump: 

I know, right. This has actually been lots of fun, and the conversations have given me all kinds of ideas for things to write about it. Particularly the big series we did back in the summer of 2021 — Uniquely Unique.

Hoogerwerf: 

What does it mean to be human?

Stump: 

Yes… and by the way… I caught that episode you did with Charles Foster while I was gone…

Hoogerwerf: 

Uh oh.

Stump: 

I’m quoting you. “There’s this debate I’m having with my boss, can you help solve this for us?” and he says “Oh, I’m entirely with you!”

Hoogerwerf: 

In my defense, I did try to channel you and your perspective on human uniqueness.

Stump: 

Yeah, somehow it’s easier to get the guest onboard with your perspective when I’m not actually there to defend myself.

Hoogerwerf: 

So… back to the sabbatical?

Stump: 

Yes, sorry. I got sidetracked there for a minute. This topic of what it means to be human, particularly given our evolutionary history, is really interesting to me. How did we become the kind of creatures that could bear the image of God, that have all these capacities that really do make us uniquely unique?

Hoogerwerf: 

Sabbatical?

Stump: 

I’m getting there. So about a year ago I proposed to the BioLogos administration and board of directors to take 15 weeks off from my regular work to write a book about this.

Hoogerwerf: 

There’s the sabbatical. But you didn’t just sit and write for 15 weeks.

Stump: 

No. The book was originally envisioned as a kind of spiritual journey of our species, and I thought it would be an interesting angle on this to pair it with a journey of my own, going to see and experience some interesting sights that have some relevance for our species’ journey. So for the first six weeks, I proposed traipsing around Europe to see archeological sites and a few other things that I thought might be interesting to write about.

Hoogerwerf: 

And for the sake of economizing resources, the start of your journey coincided with another event several of us were in the UK for and which our regular listeners will be familiar with, which was the live recording we did with Bethany Sollereder and Nick Spencer in Cambridge, which can be found back on episode 125.

Stump: 

And we recorded several other episodes while there. Ard Louis at the fancy physics building in Oxford. 

Hoogerwerf:

Episode 126.

Stump:

And Stan Rosenberg walking down Parks Road between Keble College and the Museum of Natural History.

Hoogerwerf: 

That’s episode 127. And we walked around with Andy Gosler in some thousand year old fields, episode 129, and Faith interviewed Lizzie Henderson from the Faraday Institute while we were over there, episode 128.

Stump: 

Yeah, those were really fun. It was good to be with people in the flesh again instead of always doing the interviews remotely.

Hoogerwerf: 

And there are still some more episodes in the works from that trip—specifically from the 9 hours we spent way up north on the Orkney Islands. And that has something to do with this sabbatical work too, right? 

Stump:

Yeah, so I’d been looking for old things to go see, and it turns out that about 5000 years ago, there was quite the civilization on those windswept islands so far up in the North Sea, and some of the remains are remarkably well preserved. And that got you interested in perhaps making a series of episodes about the things you can see there.

Hoogerwerf: 

Yes, so we tagged along with you to the ancient village of Skara Brae, and the tomb of Maeshowe, and the Ring of Brodgar, and a few other places. Some of our plans, as so often happens on trips like these, didn’t quite work out. But we’ll put something together that will draw on that adventure. What are the lasting impressions you had from there?

Stump: 

Overwhelmingly, it is just remarkable to me that there were people there 5000 years ago. This is before the Roman Empire, before the Egyptian pyramids, before the time of Abraham. And they were setting up little villages next to the sea, and erecting these huge stone circles we got to walk around, and another structure that sure appears to have had religious significance. This was well before any written languages were preserved that might tell us more about what they were thinking, but pretty obviously they were a lot like us. I’m just really intrigued by trying to understand the religious impulses they had, and how they contributed to who we are today. So to stand in the very place that these people stood was very meaningful.

Hoogerwerf: 

That’s kind of what we’re trying to make some episodes about—the importance of being there and what we can take from the knowledge about these ancient people and how they lived. But we didn’t get to be there with you on the rest of your trip.

Stump: 

No, from the Orkney’s we took a big boat all night down to Aberdeen and saw Dunnottar Castle, and then we were on the upper deck of one of those double-decker buses going back into the city. And at one of the stops you guys stood up and said, “well, see you later” and you walked off to take the path that would lead you home, and left me alone. It was a really weird feeling.

Hoogerwerf: 

Where’d you go from there?

Stump: 

So first, back to London, and the next item on my itinerary was to make a pilgrimage to the gravesite of Simone Weil.

Hoogerwerf: 

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think she’s from the ancient period of human prehistory you were going to see.

Stump: 

No, she was a French philosopher and mystic who died during World War II when she was in England working with the French Resistance. But she’s going to function as a kind of guide for part of the book I’m writing, particularly as I try to grapple with the pain and suffering that has been part of our history. She died tragically young at the age of 34. And I thought it might be meaningful to go and stand six feet above her bones.

Hoogerwerf: 

There’s that thing about the importance of being in a place again. Anything remarkable happen?

Stump: 

Nothing particularly mystical or miraculous. But yeah it was pretty cool. I took some selfies.

Hoogerwerf: 

Good. Where to next?

Stump: 

So then I flew down to Gibraltar, that southern tip of the Iberian peninsula that is still controlled by Great Britain in some confusing way for semi-independent countries that belong to the commonwealth. I stayed in a bedroom of a fairly orthodox Jewish family.

Hoogerwerf: 

How orthodox?

Stump: 

I wasn’t allowed to bring anything into the kosher kitchen. But they were very hospitable.

Hoogerwerf: 

What was there of relevance for your project in Gibraltar?

Stump: 

Neanderthal caves.

Hoogerwerf: 

Oo, that sounds fun.

Stump: 

It would have been if I had been allowed to go in. I had worked out with one of the scientists to get a private tour in the caves they’re actively excavating. But then the night before we were to go, it rained, and there is some regulation that no one is allowed in the caves for 48 hrs after a rain.

Hoogerwerf:

Bummer.

Stump: 

Yeah, so instead I sat in his office in the Gibraltar museum and talked to him for an hour about Neanderthals. It was still very interesting, and some of that conversation should make it into one of our episodes.

Hoogerwerf: 

That wasn’t the only time your plans didn’t quite work out.

Stump: 

No, from Gibraltar, I thought I’d pop down to Morocco, where the oldest Homo sapiens fossils were found and now on display at a museum in Rabat. But when I got there, I was informed by a security guard that the museum is currently closed for refurbishments.

Hoogerwerf: 

Maybe you should have checked that before trekking to a different continent??

Stump: 

I did! Their website said it was open. I finally found my way to an administrative office and talked to someone, and practically begged to be let in. And she said, “sorry, we posted the closing on our Instagram page.”

Hoogerwerf: 

That will teach you to pay more attention to social media!

Stump: 

I suppose that’s where everything important happens nowadays. From there I went up to Barcelona and took a tour of the Sagrada Familia cathedral which is still under construction.

Hoogerwerf: 

And has been for a hundred years, right?

Stump: 

Yes. The scale of it is really amazing. The architect Gaudí started it back in the early 20th century. It made me wonder whether 5000 years from now, if people are still around, whether they’ll look back at it the way we looked at those ruins in Orkney, wondering about our spiritual longings and practices.

Hoogerwerf: 

But at least they’ll have some written records to go along with it.

Stump: 

True. I think. But by then everyone will just be communicating through ESP or something, and thinking about how primitive we are.

Hoogerwerf: 

Who knows. Back to the trip.

Stump: 

Right. I went up in the mountains outside Barcelona to the Montserrat monastery, which is just kind of carved into the cliffs. It’s really spectacular.

Hoogerwerf: 

You keep using words like that.

Stump: 

Sorry, this is part of the problem with trying to tell people about such experiences. The words fall short.

Hoogerwerf: 

Well what did you do there?

Stump: 

Well, I stayed for three nights in the dormitory. I did a lot of hiking up in the mountains that had views that were just—

Hoogerwerf: 

—spectacular, I’m sure.

Stump: 

Yes! And entered into the life of the monastery. It’s benedictine, so there are lots of services, including ones very early in the morning announced by bells ringing incessantly. But it was a very nice respite from constantly moving around to put down roots for a few days, wash some clothes, do some writing.

Hoogerwerf: 

But then you kept moving.

Stump: 

Yes, from there I went up across the border into France to see some ancient cave paintings. Lascaux is the most famous of these, but they no longer let you in to see the originals, because they’re worried about the degradation of the site due to visitors. But they’ve created this replica that is about millimeter perfect in its replication for what the cave actually looks and feels like to be in.

Hoogerwerf: 

Hmm, so this sounds like it’s somewhere between actually being there in person or just looking at a picture in a book. You’re not actually standing in the place where our ancestors once stood. 

Stump: 

Yeah, and Lascaux feels a bit touristy now. It was cool to see, but not quite the same vibe as being there. However, just 30 miles from there is another cave art site, much less well known, but they do let you in to see the original. It is in the town of Rouffignac—or rather it’s out in the middle of nowhere kind of close to the tiny village of Rouffignac. The cave was used during WWII and then sometime in the 50s was discovered to have more than 250 paintings and engravings deep down inside it. So they excavated a wider path to get down and installed a little electric tram like what you’d ride at Disneyland. It takes you more than a kilometer into the cave, where a room opens up and there are these magnificent drawings of mammoths sketched on the walls.

Hoogerwerf: 

From how long ago?

Stump: 

Estimates are about 15k years ago. It’s really remarkable to think some people clambered that deep in the cave, lighting their way with reindeer fat torches, and sketched these mammoths. Why? That doesn’t seem to confer any survival advantage on them.

Hoogerwerf: 

Probably the opposite, right? 

Stump: 

It was risky, I’m sure, and they did it just because they wanted to produce art.

Hoogerwerf: 

That sounds like a modern thing to do.

Stump: 

They were like us, I guess.

Hoogerwerf: 

I’m sure we’ll get to that in some future episodes. For now keep your story going.

Stump: 

Ok. From there I went back to Spain to start hiking the Camino de Santiago. I’d done another section before, ending where you’re supposed to at the cathedral in Santiago. But this time I started at the border with France and started walking the northern route along the Bay of Biscay. Again, spectacular scenery, staying in hostels they call albergues for pilgrims on the Camino. I hiked about 100 miles by myself, and then my wife joined me in the city of Bilbao. We went another 50 miles or so to the city of Santander. And we were supposed to meet our kids in Rome, but then plans changed again, and the kids couldn’t come. So we decided to celebrate the anniversary we had during COVID and go to Malta.

Hoogerwerf: 

That doesn’t sound like a sabbatical.

Stump: 

No, the sabbatical was 15 weeks, but I was actually gone for 16 weeks, one of which really was vacation. But also, on Malta, I took a day trip to one of the islands that has what they say is the second-oldest man-made structure in the world: the temple ruins of Ġgantija, that were built in 3600 BC. Again, very cool to stand in the spot these people did who were expressing their spirituality in the best way they knew how.

Hoogerwerf: 

Well, that sounds like quite the trip.

Stump: 

Yes, it was an adventure. I wouldn’t say that all of it was fun. There were some times that were pretty stressful, trying to navigate my way around in countries whose languages I barely speak and understand. And I’m an introvert by nature, but being by myself for that long was emotionally draining after a while. I was pretty happy when my wife got there.

But then, as these things go at least in retrospect, it seemed like the time went by pretty quickly. I got home in the middle of October, and then started a pretty disciplined schedule of writing. Each day I made a to-do list, which started with “write 1000 words.” Some days that went pretty quickly, and I made it to other things on my list like “read this book, take a walk, organize the basement storage room”

Hoogerwerf: 

Watch a World Cup soccer match?

Stump: 

Yes, there was some of that too. But I wrote about 45,000 words—most of which I hope will make it into the final draft of the book.

Hoogerwerf: 

So where do things stand now?

Stump: 

As usually happens when you get working with editors, things change a bit. The scope of what I originally thought I’d do has been narrowed significantly, so now I think there are two books. This first one is a bit more of my own story of reconciling my faith with the science of evolution, working through challenges it presents. I highlight quite a few of the conversations we’ve had on the podcast, and talk about the places I’ve been to see.

Hoogerwerf: 

And this first book is all finished?

Stump: 

Not quite… as we speak, the proposal is sitting on the desks of a few publishers. If things go well, I’ll have more to say about it here in the future. And I started writing one of those Substack newsletters about my trip and about the book. You can see a blow-by-blow account of the trip there—some of it pretty ridiculous—and I’ll update it as things progress with the book.

Hoogerwerf: 

OK, well we’re glad to have you back. And maybe I’ll snag a few more chances to introduce some episodes this year, but for the time being, I’ll hand the podcast host duties back over to you. But before we go, I’ll take this chance to ask the final host question. Reading any good books lately?

Stump: 

Yes, I always have a few going, at least a couple of which are for future podcast episodes. One of those is the novel, Transcendent Kingdom, by Yaa Gyasi, which we’ll be using for our first ever Language of God book club. That episode will come out sometime in March, so if listeners would like to read along, now would be a good time to find the book and get started. I’m also plowing my way through the several thousand pages of Iain McGilchrist’s massive new set of books, The Matter With Things, which combines neuroscience and philosophy in a way that I find really fascinating. And then on the side I’ve been interested in Native American history and issues, and I’m reading a book called, Indigenous Continent, which tells the story of the European conquest of North America from the perspective of Native Americans.

Hoogerwerf: 

That all sounds fascinating, and I’m sure will make it into future episodes. Alright, the show is yours. 

Stump: 

Thank you. Well we’ve got a full schedule of interviews coming up and we’ll be working on more of these narrative episodes about ancient humans and some other series we have in mind. Stay tuned and see you next time. 

BioLogos:

Language of God is produced by BioLogos. It has been funded in part by the Fetzer Institute, the John Templeton Foundation, and by individual donors and listeners who contribute to BioLogos. Language of God is produced and mixed by Colin Hoogerwerf. That’s me. Our theme song is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 

BioLogos offices are located in Grand Rapids, Michigan in the Grand River watershed. If you have questions or want to join in a conversation about this episode find a link in the show notes for the BioLogos forum or visit our website, biologos.org, where you will find articles, videos and other resources on faith and science. Thanks for listening.