Signature in the Cell

December 28, 2009
Category: BioLogos Features

Signature in the Cell

"Science and the Sacred" frequently features essays from The BioLogos Foundation's leaders and Senior Fellows. Today's entry was written by Darrel Falk. Darrel Falk serves as president of The BioLogos Foundation. He transitioned into Christian higher education 25 years ago and has given numerous talks about the relationship between science and faith at many universities and seminaries. He is the author of Coming to Peace with Science.

I believe there is a Mind who was before all things and through whom all things are held together (Colossians 1:17): I believe that Mind is the intelligence behind all that exists in the universe. Hence, I believe in intelligent design. Does that by definition then, place me in the Intelligent Design (ID) movement?

No.

The recent book, Signature in the Cell , by ID movement leader Stephen C. Meyer, illustrates why.

Meyer holds a Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Cambridge and is an expert in the philosophy of science. Admittedly, I am only an amateur in his area of expertise, but there were times as I was reading his book, when I was enthralled by the highly articulate explanation of how the tools of scientific logic enable us to become quite certain about the cause of natural events in the distant past. Similarly, his discussion of attempts to meaningfully define science was outstanding. He showed how the term has taken on new meaning based on practice. Today, as it is carried out by almost all practitioners, science has become synonymous with methodological naturalism. Meyer may have been overly optimistic when he wrote, “recently however, this [definition] has begun to change as more scientists are becoming interested in the evidence for intelligent design” (p. 437). Still, I enjoyed his discussion of the political and philosophical maneuvers of those with a vested interest in how this term ought to be defined. This is Stephen Meyer at his best. He is very effective in communicating philosophical issues to a general audience. Perhaps it is no surprise then, that a world-class philosopher, Thomas Nagel of New York University, recommended Signature in the Cell to The Times Literary Supplement as one of the best books of 2009.

It is important to emphasize, however, that the Intelligent Design movement is not purported to be philosophical or religious in nature. The leaders, including Stephen Meyer, emphatically declare this is a scientific movement and it needs to be judged on the quality of its science, not its philosophy or theology. So Meyer has expanded his extensive reading list to include numerous journal articles and books within the field of biochemistry, molecular biology and genetics. His purpose has been to assess the quality of the scientific interpretations of the data as it relates to the origin of the information inside of cells. He has reached the conclusion that the sciences of biochemistry, molecular biology and genetics have come to a dead end and that the only reasonable scientific explanation now is that the information inside of a cell is the product of an external mind.

Many scientists think that as life began, its source of information was found in RNA molecules. There are specialized reasons for this, which are not germane to the point I want to make. Suffice it to say, however, that Meyer suggests that the two different conditions for making two of the key building blocks that characterize an RNA molecule are incompatible (p. 303). In other words, the conditions under which one building block could have been synthesized on the early earth would have resulted in the destruction of the second building block, and vice versa. Since there is no way that both could have been produced simultaneously on a primitive earth, Meyer declares that RNA could not arise without the input of a mind. As he was writing these words, however, some elegant experiments were taking place at the University of Manchester that showed there is a way, a very feasible way that both building blocks could have been produced through natural processes.1

In Chapter 14, as Stephen Meyer brings his discussion about the feasibility of RNA’s role as the early storehouse for cellular information to a conclusion, he recalls a twenty year old conversation with a philosophy professor about origin-of-life-research: “The field is becoming increasingly populated by cranks. Everyone knows everybody else’s theory doesn’t work, but no one is willing to admit it about his own.” Following this statement, Meyer fast-forwards into the present, and writes of his own assessment of the field twenty years later: “I found no reason to amend these assessments” (p. 322). As a geneticist, I am taken aback by this assessment. The work he had just been discussing is the work of Jack Szostak who was awarded the Nobel Prize a few weeks ago. I’ve heard Dr Szostak speak a number of times. He is no crank. He is widely regarded as a brilliant mind. Read his Scientific American article for yourself (seefootnote, below), you’ll see he is also very frank about the strengths and weaknesses of his current thoughts about life’s origins. Also, his work is by no means at a standstill. Only a philosopher, I suppose, or someone else quite naïve about how science proceeds at a lab bench would be able to make such an assessment.

Immediately prior to Meyer’s assessment about cranks in the field of origin-of-life-research, he had also been discussing the work of Gerald Joyce of The Scripps Research Institute. I have also been privileged to hear Dr. Joyce speak on at least three occasions. He, like Szostak, is widely regarded by biochemists and molecular biologists as brilliant. Like Szostak, I find that his discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of the RNA world model is cautious. He knows there are many unanswered questions, but he has made great strides at answering some of them. At the time of writing Signature of the Cell, Dr. Meyer correctly concluded that no RNA molecule had ever been evolved in a test tube which could do more than join two building blocks together. However, while the book was in press, Gerald Joyce and Tracey Lincoln published an article in Science in which they demonstrated that evolved-RNA can take on a second function, the all-important replication activity. In just 30 hours their collection of RNA molecules had grown 100 million times bigger through a replication process carried out exclusively by evolved RNA molecules. So another dead-end pronouncement by Meyer was breached even while the book was in press.

I want to give one more example which demonstrates Meyer’s disappointing tendency to reach premature conclusions based on his unsuccessful attempt to move from philosophy into genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology. Dr. Meyer evaluates the work of the population geneticist, Michael Lynch of Indiana University. He points out the Lynch has proposed that “the structure of the genome can be explained by a neutralist theory of evolution based mainly on genetic drift” (p. 470). Meyer concludes in just a sentence or two that Lynch is wrong and that genetic drift is less likely than natural selection. Again, I am very puzzled by this conclusion in what is purported to be a science book which is examining scientific data. Lynch is one of the finest population geneticists in the world. What experiment or calculation has Stephen Meyer done to put himself in a position to tell Michael Lynch which of two possible scenarios is more likely? Yet he does this in a single sentence.

Signature in the Cell is by most accounts considered to be a highly successful book. From a philosophy perspective, it is considered by at least one leading philosopher to be one of the best books of 2009. From a religious perspective, Meyer, on the basis of this book, has just been declared “Daniel of the Year” by the widely read evangelical periodical World Magazine. From the public persona perspective it has sold very well—Amazon.com had it on one of its top ten lists for the 2009 best sellers.

However, the book is supposed to be a science book and the ID movement is purported to be primarily a scientific movement—not primarily a philosophical, religious, or even popular movement. Meyer argues throughout the book that his theory about the origin of information is scientific, not religious. He makes it clear that he wants it to be considered on its scientific merits alone. I am comfortable with this. Let it be evaluated on the basis of its science. Like him, I believe in intelligent design. However, I am also a scientist. So I need to evaluate this book in the way that he calls all of us to do, as a work of science. I must consider whether this philosopher, this Christian brother, this best-selling author, and this leading debater has been successful at analyzing the data of the world’s leading scientists—people who have given their careers full time for many years to asking (and answering) very sophisticated questions about whether material causes have created information.

There is no question that large amounts information have been created by materialistic forces over the past several hundred million years. Meyer dismisses this without discussing it. What about at the very beginning, 3.5 billion years ago? Everyone doing the science, Meyer notwithstanding, would say the jury is still out. There are some very elegant feasibility experiments going on at the present time. However, it is far too early for a philosopher to jump into the fray and declare no further progress will be made and that this science is now dead. If the object of the book is to show that the Intelligent Design movement is a scientific movement, it has not succeeded. In fact, what it has succeeded in showing is that it is a popular movement grounded primarily in the hopes and dreams of those in philosophy, in religion, and especially those in the general public. With all due respect for the very fine people associated with the ID movement, many of whom I have met personally and whose sincerity I greatly appreciate, our hopes and dreams need to be much bigger than this. The science of origins is not the failure it is purported to be. It is just science moving along as science does—one step at a time. Let it be.

1. See this Scientific American article for an outstanding description of this and other recent developments, which show that what Stephen Meyer declared to be a dead end is still an extremely active and exciting area of scientific research. Even as he was declaring that no further progress would be made, the problem had been solved.

Filed Under:
science, religion, intelligent design, Stephen C. Meyer, Signature in the Cell, Discovery Institute, RNA, evolution

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  1. Gordon J. Glover - #1258

    December 28th 2009

    I’m currently in Chapter 12.  Like Karl, I’m really enjoying the book.  It’s entertaining, very well written, and attempts to address the arguments against ID.  While I too feel that the book falls short of making a scientific case for ID, I can still recommend it to others as the best argument that the ID movement has put forth to date.

    I am preparing a chapter-by-chapter video review of SitC to post on my YouTube channel after the new year.  I’ll be dealing specifically with the following topics:

    1.)  The argument that there is no such thing as “apparent design”—ie: all design is directed by an intelligent agency.

    2.)  That ID is inherently a scientific argument and does not depend on ones’ theistic commitments.

    3.)  The “Chicken and the egg” arguement as it applies to DNA and the machinery that accompanies it.

    4.)  That ID is “causally sufficient” in and of itself without a material mechanism (efficient cause) to accomplish it.

    5.)  Arguements from probability (specifically, how they undercut both the distinctives of the Christian faith and the argument that ID is nonreligious).

    www.youtube.com/glovergj

  2. beaglelady - #1260

    December 28th 2009

    This is an excellent review, and it brings to mind Behe’s arguments about the supposed lack of evidence for the evolution of the immune system.  ID is truly a science stopper!  Would you please post this review on Amazon.com?

  3. Darrel Falk - #1265

    December 28th 2009

    Hi Gordon,

    “Enjoyed” is not the word, I would use to describe my experience.  I think maybe I need to go back and rewrite this review smile

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  4. Girdon J. Glover - #1266

    December 28th 2009

    Whops!  Sorry Darrel - For some reason I was thinking Karl wrote the review. 

    I found the book difficult to put down.  Meyer is telling a facinating story and he has the ability to keep you on the edge of your seat.

    But at the of the day, wishful thinking is no substitute for patience - science can indeed be slow.

    GJG

  5. steve martin - #1268

    December 28th 2009

    Hi Darrel,

    Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful critique of Meyer’s book.  That was helpful.  Too often the ID and EC (or TE) debate / dialogue degenerates into little more than hurled insults.  When our Christian relationships are so publicly nasty, non-Christians can hardly find our faith attractive.  I’m consistently impressed with you tone in these matters.  Thanks.

    Question: As one who has had a lot of dialogue with ID supporters, do you believe there is reason to be hopeful for an ID / EC rapprochement of sorts?  To me, there seems to be more support for common descent within the IDM.  As well, there seem to be forums of real dialogue rather than just debate.  I’m thinking, for eg., of the Loren Haarsma / Bruce Gordon session at the ASA meeting this year (audio at: http://www.asa3.org/ASAradio/ASA2009Haarsma.mp3) - unfortunately Meyer was supposed to be there but couldn’t because of a family emergency. 

    PS: For those on both sides of this dialogue, I highly recommend Haarsma’s Four Myths about ID and TE paper that he based his part of the talk on.

  6. Darrel Falk - #1269

    December 28th 2009

    Response to Steve Martin:

    HI Steve,

    Your question is key, of course.  Since the ID movement includes people of each of the three major views of creation (YEC, OE and TE/EC) the discussion boils down to pure science.  Steve Meyer makes the point (quite strongly I think) that theology and philosophy are incidental to the ID movement.  Furthermore, many in the ID movement are not Christians. 

    What this means then is that we ought to be able to move the discussion into the purely scientific realm.  It can be a secular discussion.  Leading non-ID scientists talking with leading ID scientists.  I wonder if we could set up something like that and have it availble for all to watch? 

    The problem, of course, is that secular scientists are so busy with things they find so much more interesting.  Perhaps, though, if they were assured of a large internet audience., and perhaps, since the ID movement is fooling (strong word, but that’s how I feel) millions of people…they might see significance in engaging the ID scientists for a public forum.

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  7. John Kwok - #1270

    December 28th 2009

    Darrel,

    I stumbled upon your review by accident, after receiving a tip from someone else who comments often over at Panda’s Thumb. Yours may be the best written and most thoughtful critique of Meyer’s book that I have encountered anywhere online. However, I don’t share your desire that there should be some kind of rapproachment between ID supporters and those who are professional scientists working within the mainstream scientific community

    Sincerely,

    John

    P. S. I have posted a much longer, more extensive reply over at Panda’s Thumb here:

    http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/12/creationists-sa.html#comment-202376

  8. VMartin - #1271

    December 28th 2009

    PART1.
    I read also the recommended article by Mr. Darrel Falk in SciAm. Darrel wrote in his last sentence:

    “Even as he was declaring that no further progress would be made, the problem had been solved.”

    I don’t see how it has been solved. In the SciAm we are reading among many far-fetched and unproven hypothesis also this enchanting story:

    <i>“A crucial feature of this small, stable molecule is that it is very volatile. Perhaps small amounts of 2-aminooxazole formed together with a mixture of other chemicals in a pond on the early earth; once the water evaporated, the 2-amino­oxazole vaporized, only to condense elsewhere, in a purified form. There it would accumulate as a reservoir of material, ready for further chemical reactions that would form a full sugar and nucleobase attached to each other.
    “<i>

    Sorry but these “perhaps” is too unbelievable to be presented as a real science. The whole article in SciAm sounds more like some alchemical speculation. Alchemists tried to make gold from
    quicksilber, nowadays mentioned scientists are trying to make living proto-cells from aminoacids, pieces of RNA, enzymes which mysteriously “vaporize” and “condense” in “purified form” !

  9. VMartin - #1273

    December 28th 2009

    PART2.

    Obviously all of experimentalists do not pay any attention to the basic fact, that complex molecules outside living systems tend to break down in accordance with the second thermodynamic law. From this point of view their experiments are condemned to the failure from the very beginning.
    It was also opinion of Ludwig von Bertalanffy, the father of General System Theory.

    Let me use irony: Life is such an epiphenomenon of unliving matter as human memory if epiphenomenon of brain.  Only darwinists like late Gould could belive it.

    What we are here witnessing is no doubt the touch of supranatural.

    More on Bertalanffy in my blog.

  10. Mark - #1274

    December 28th 2009

    One senses in this review a sort of passive aggressive indifference towards ID. The perfunctory first paragraph tosses the pitch and the last paragraph proceeds to smash it out of the park.  It is the same signature indifference the careful observer detects in Mr. Collin’s book—although Mr. Collins is notably less implicit.

    Even though I am a proponent of Theistic Evolution and consider myself a patron of the BioLogos Foundation, I think Mr. Meyer’s work is a very important contribution to the continuing discussion, and quite frankly it would be nice to see it acknowledged as such.

  11. John Kwok - #1275

    December 28th 2009

    Darrel,

    I might add here too that I endorse beaglelady’s recommendation that this review be posted over at Amazon.com, merely to demonstrate to the Discovery institute and its sychophants that there are thoughtful, devout Christians like yourself who reject Meyer’s claims on both scientific and religious grounds. One aspect of Meyer’s book which you do not really dwell on is whether Intelligent Design can be a credible scientific theory in the sense that it is capable of generating testable hypotheses. I find Meyer’s efforts towards this end, at the very end of his book, to be quite insincere and disingenuous, demonstrating his willful scientific ignorance as to what science can and can’t accomplish. Regrettably, his book merely demonstrates that, contrary to Gordon’s original comment here, it is not the best work that the Intelligent Design movement has produced (a claim that I regard as utterly absurd on the very merits of it, not as a means of criticizing Gordon’s sincerity).

    Sincerely yours,

    John

    P. S. I do address Meyer’s contention that Intelligent Design is a viable scientific theory in my harsh, but accurate, review of “Signature” over at Amazon.

  12. Girdon J. Glover - #1276

    December 28th 2009

    John, In my opinion, SitC is one of the best literary efforts from the IDM because it takes all of the arguments to date and weaves a narrative out of them.  This type of storytelling makes it very readable. 

    In the end, the slick packaging is no substitute for scientific merit, but it does make the book enjoyable.

    GJG

  13. Brian - #1281

    December 28th 2009

    One of the most common criticisms of ID is that it is not scientific because it is not testable. Read the referenced SciAm article and ask yourself which of the following statements (I provided only two because of space restrictions) are scientifically testable—and remember, if its not testable, its not science.  Given this definition, what % of the piece is actual science? 

    A couple representative examples: 

    “Fortuitous mutations, appearing at random in the copying process, would then propel evolution, enabling these early cells to adapt to their environment, to compete with one another, and eventually to turn into the life-forms we know.”

    “As soon as the environment nudged protocells to start reproducing, evolution kicked in. In particular, at some point some of the RNA sequences mutated, becoming ribozymes that sped up the copying of RNA—thus adding a competitive advantage. Eventually ribozymes began to copy RNA without external help.”

  14. John Kwok - #1282

    December 28th 2009

    Girdon,

    Meyer was at his best in discussing some of the history of science related to the discovery of DNA. Otherwise, my eyes began to glaze each and every time I read how “scientific” Intelligent Design is. You’ll have to forgive me, but I would prefer watching a bad “Star Trek” episode or a mediocre “Star Trek” novel than wasting my time any further with Meyer’s “literary” effort (BTW I think Michael Behe’s “The Edge of Evolution” is a better book, but that’s not really saying much from me with regards to either of them, whom I regard as dishonest mendacious intellectual pornographers.).

    Sincerely,

    John

  15. steve martin - #1284

    December 28th 2009

    Hi Darrel,

    I’d be very interested in how Meyer backs up his claim that “that theology and philosophy are incidental to the ID movement”.  Haarsma makes the point in his paper (which I believe he shared with Meyer prior to the ASA conference) that

    “ID, as a whole package, is partly scientific, partly philosophical, and partly religious.”

    and then goes on to categorize the various claims.  So contrary to the common claim of many detractors (and I admit I used to be one) that “ID just isn’t science”, I would agree that ID is partly about science & does make some scientific claims (claims that I hasten to add, I am not convinced are backed up by the evidence – at least not yet).

  16. steve martin - #1285

    December 28th 2009

    (continued from above ...)

    But the salient point here is that, just as ID-detractors are not quite right when then say “ID just isn’t science”, I think it is almost self-evident from a practical perspective that “ID is NOT just about science”.  Why else do we have so many apologetics organizations where ID (or maybe “anti-Darwinism”) is a central plank?  And maybe even more to your point that ID spans the entire creationist spectrum (YEC, OEC, EC), how can an organization that is “just about science” disagree on such basic & easily describable scientific facts like the age of the earth and common descent but then agree on such a nebulous (although intuitively understandable) idea like design? 

    John K:
    The “rapprochement” was suggested by myself, not Darrel.  Maybe it was the wrong word – maybe I should have used “common ground”.  My view is that there is probably some merit for orthodox Christian believers that are EC discussing these issues with orthodox Christian believers who are ID but accept common descent (a part of evolutionary theory that probably has the strongest evidential support)

  17. VMartin - #1286

    December 28th 2009

    Brian.

    I agree. The article in SciAm as very little convincing. I mentioned it in my previous post as well, all those enzymes that “vaporize” and “condense in purified form” . Sounds like alchemy.

    I also do not see how there can be any agreement between theology and (neo)darwinism. The fault is not on the side of religion. The whole concept of (neo)darwinism is unproven. The main concept next random mutation - the so called natural selection - has nothing to do with evolution. Natural selection is purely conservative anti-evolutionary force that only maintains status-quo and removes extremities. I have devoted much effort to summarize arguments on my blog about
    the role of Natural selection in once beloved child of selectionists: mimicry. Arguments from prominent scientists of the past that are simply ignored.

    One should be very prudent in assessing (neo)darwinian concepts like “natural selection” as “scientific”.

  18. Dan - #1287

    December 28th 2009

    VMartin claims

    “Obviously all of experimentalists do not pay any attention to the basic fact, that complex molecules outside living systems tend to break down in accordance with the second thermodynamic law. From this point of view their experiments are condemned to the failure from the very beginning.”

    This ancient misconception has long ago been shown to be false.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html

    VMartin’s position seems to be that it’s okay for complex molecules to build up inside living systems, but that the second law forces them to break down outside of living systems.  This makes no sense, because the second law holds both inside and outside of living systems.

    It is commonplace to see complex, organized systems build up outside of living things: snowflakes, dustbunnies, geyser plumes, dendrites, hurricanes.  It’s been three decades since I studied organic chemistry, but I remember in that class learning how complex, organized molecules were built up outside of living things.

  19. beaglelady - #1288

    December 28th 2009

    John Kwok,

    Greetings!  You can post your entire, original post here (which was very good) by breaking it up and posting it in chunks.

  20. Jordan - #1290

    December 28th 2009

    @steve martin:

    I couldn’t agree with you more. I enjoy reading BioLogos quite a bit but I’ve become quite disappointed by the commentary here and how people (some of whom seem to be Christians) seem to enjoy bashing others about with personal attacks and such rather than providing positive arguments for their positions.

    I would have thought the imminent issues here would be the Gospel and showing a good defense of our faith, showing scientists that Christians can think, and importantly showing Christians that it’s OK to think. We don’t need to tear each other down to do that.

    As a scientist I’ve been taught that I don’t need to tear down the work of others, rather I need to show my results, my interpretation, my evidence, and let the reader decide. I think that can be a good strategy in general. Sure you can compare and contrast, point out strengths and weaknesses of various theories and hypotheses, but do we really need to constantly bash each other?

  21. RJS - #1291

    December 28th 2009

    Jordan,

    Beautifully said - the imminent issues are the gospel and a fair approach to the issues.  We don’t need to tear each other down to do that. Not only that but the approach that tears down and ridicules convinces no one and helps no one move ahead.

  22. DKDK - #1292

    December 28th 2009

    Jordan - (#1290) said:

    “I would have thought the imminent issues here would be the Gospel and showing a good defense of our faith, showing scientists that Christians can think, and importantly showing Christians that it’s OK to think. We don’t need to tear each other down to do that.”

    Curious that you argue in defense of your faith, whereas this review (Falk’s) is whether or not Meyer’s books is really about science, philosophy, or religion.  Your intent, then, is to strip all pretences of science from Meyer’s book and declare it in support of your religion (which is it’s actual intent btw, it just masquerades as science).  Meyer is no scientist, he is merely trying to redefine (round) science to accommodate in his (square) ID “theory.”

  23. Jordan - #1293

    December 28th 2009

    @DKDK:

    You misunderstand what I was saying. Nowhere did I say anything about Meyer’s book (which I guess is not in keeping with the BioLogos comment policy but I’ll endeavor to make up for it) but was rather commenting on the larger issue of how the discussions are going on this blog. I didn’t say I was a proponent of ID either and I wasn’t making a defense of my faith so I’m not sure where you are coming from.

    I didn’t take Darrel’s review to be, as you say, whether or not Meyer’s book is really about science, philosophy, or religion. His main critique, as I read it, was that Meyer’s science is not very robust because he makes scientific predictions that are then later shown to be weak or perhaps even plain untrue. Additionally, I think Falk is suggesting that since Meyer and other ID people indicate that ID should be judged on it’s scientific merits alone, this constitutes a significant blow to ID.

    (cont.)

  24. Jordan - #1294

    December 28th 2009

    @DKDK:

    (cont.)

    Because “we” (BioLogos, Meyer, Dawkins, most people commenting on this blog, etc.) are looking at the intersection, interface, and/or interaction of faith and science, I don’t really see why we’d want to strip all religious implications from science or all scientific implications from religion. It’s precisely where they meet and interact that all the “good stuff” happens. So I don’t know what exactly you thought my intent was, but I don’t think it’s what you think it is. grin

  25. Richard - #1295

    December 29th 2009

    The review nicely points out how Meyer and ilk merely keep trying to bite at the ankles of real scientists (and failing miserably) in order to keep proffering their preconceived ideological, religiously motivated, political dogma. It’s anti-science masquerading as science.

    It’s certainly classy that one religiously motivated organization has the guts to debunk the nonsense of another, instead of leaving it up to “the usual suspects”.

  26. John Kwok - #1296

    December 29th 2009

    Darrel,

    I stumbled upon your review by accident, after receiving a tip from someone else who comments often over at Panda’s Thumb. Yours may be the best written and most thoughtful critique of Meyer’s book that I have encountered anywhere online. However, I don’t share your desire that there should be some kind of rapproachment between ID supporters and those who are professional scientists working within the mainstream scientific community

  27. John Kwok - #1297

    December 29th 2009

    First, Intelligent Design isn’t valid science, period. While I understand and appreciate philosopher Philip Kitcher’s observation that Intelligent Design is “dead science” - merely since it was once an important philosophical construct that guided scientific research from the 16th through 18th centuries - it was rejected a long time ago by science. That Meyer and his Discovery Institute “colleagues” insistance that it deserves a place at the scientific “round table” is not one borne of sincerity, but instead, out of duplicity, which they have demonstrated countlessly ever since Intelligent Design was proclaimed by Philip Johnson and William Dembski, among others, to be an important “challenge” to evolution; a challenge that has no merit whatsoever simply because Dembski, Meyer et al. have refused to subject it to scientific peer review or even try to do any scientific research that could demonstrate that Intelligent Design is valid science.

  28. Steve Cherry - #1302

    December 29th 2009

    Mr Kwok - Thank you for the amusing diatribe.  You and beaglelady should take a cruise or something…really get to know the sound of your voices.  I was scanning here to see if anyone had actually read, and had some useful comments on SitC.  Sadly, it appears the most prolific commenters have run amock and forgot to mention in detail (hopefully a page, a paragraph from SitC—something) whether they agree with Mr Falk or no?

    Mr Kwok?  Page and paragraph, please.

  29. VMartin - #1303

    December 29th 2009

    Dan.

    Just see the development of the embryo from zygote. Obviously the energy that flow
    into the embryo is channeled into structures that are mostly improbable from
    the second law. Considering the Earth for “Open system” is only avoiding and distracting
    reasoning. That sunlight is radiated from the Earth (btw. isn’t light also radiation?) doesn’t
    mean that life is obeying the law of entropy.

    Let me rewrite darwinian newspeak from the talk-origin. Original:

    “the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.”

    rewritten:

    “the moon is not a closed system; radiation from the sun (with low entropy) radiates on it and heat (with higher entropy) shines off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on moon.”

  30. nd - #1306

    December 29th 2009

    VMartin,

    You are completely correct about the Moon. Because of the temperature difference between the Sun and the rest of the sky, the Moon is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. One sign of this is that different parts of it are at different temperatures. Maybe there are other signs too - I don’t know. However, although life requires a departure from equilibrium, a departure from equilibrium does not mean life. You seem to be arguing that the lack of life on the Moon (to the best of our current knowledge) means ... well, I’m not sure what, but something negative for conventional science. This is simply not true.

    I’m writing as a physicist. Of course living systems obey the second law - no law of physics excludes living or intelligent systems! “No process is possible whose sole result is the transfer of heat from a colder to a warmer body”, or “No process is possible whose sole result is the complete conversion of heat into work” are two (equivalent) statements of the second law. There is no reference to living systems here, and neither can I (as a living system) see any way in which I could violate either. Can you?

  31. Darrel Falk - #1307

    December 29th 2009

    Hi Everyone:

    The comments are flowing quite freely and in many ways that is healthy.  However, I think it is important that we not let this evolve into personal attacks, or even judgments.  As a scientist, my read of “Signature of the Cell,” is that it has declared the science of early life to be bankrupt.  The book is clearly and articulately written.  My colleague Gordon Glover is correct—this is a thoroughly engaging book.  With the possible exception of Michael Behe’s two books (which are also engagingly incorrect) never have the arguments been laid out more succinctly.  Dr. Meyer says with near certainty that the science has now reached a dead end and since there is nothing else left, he says, the only other possibility is that there is a mind behind the code of life.

    So there is one simple question to be addressed.  Is the science at a dead end?  Has Dr. Meyer demonstrated this or not?

    Dr. Meyer has chosen to take this question to a general audience, but it is purely a scientific question.  I have asked Dr. Meyer to respond with an answer on our site.  We’ll see if he does.  I also have a response from the Nobel laureate, Jack Szostak, which I will post soon.  I expect responses from other scientists as well.

  32. Darrel Falk - #1308

    December 29th 2009

    Cont.
    A couple of commenters have read Dr. Szostak’s Scientific American article.  That is a wonderful start.  They have declared, however, that Dr. Szostak’s work is not testable and thereby is not scientific.  It is important to emphasize that an article in Scientific American is not where the science is done; this is where the science is summarized.  To know whether it is science, one needs to go back to the original articles themselves.  Let me assure you, please trust me, the science is still proceeding and some of the best minds on the planet are working on this problem.  It is a fascinating scientific problem; they are thoroughly engaged.

    Some commenters have become personal.  Nothing is to be gained by this.  I have said it before and I will say it again, my experience is that these people are sincere.  They make mistakes like we all do.  However, I find I love these people, even though I have deep concerns about the quality of their science.  Please try your best not question their integrity.  If you were to sit down with each of them over coffee, you would find they are not out to deceive.

  33. Darrel Falk - #1309

    December 29th 2009

    Cont. even further

    All of that, however, is beside the point.  We can just focus on the science.  Dr. Meyer makes a simple proposition.  Is he right or is he wrong?  It is my opinion that he has been so engagingly clear, everyone with a four year degree in biology should be able to see that there is no dead end.  Those of you don’t have such a degree will just have to trust the rest of us; the science is not dead. 

    We who believe in a Mind that is above all and through all still have very good reasons to believe.  We need not base our belief on what happens in culture dishes and test tubes.  I have written in other places why I choose to believe.  My reasons are very strong and yours can be too.  We can still kneel in reverence and awe as we read John 1 and as reflect on the majesty of the Creator.  We can wait with “baited breath” as truly great scientists like Jack Szostak, Gerald Joyce and Mike Lynch work through the details of how the creation command came to be realized.  But in the famous words of one my great boyhood heroes, “It ain’t over ‘til it’s over.”

  34. Darrel Falk - #1310

    December 29th 2009

    continuation #4 (whose idea was this to limit the number of characters anyway?)

    The last twenty years of biology have been characterized by the filling in of one gap in our knowledge after another.  Meyer has focused on the biggest gap of all and declared that no one will fill in this one!  In the words of that same boyhood hero “this feels like déjà vu all over again.”  Trust me.  It ain’t over.

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  35. cist - #1311

    December 29th 2009

    As an ID proponent I believe Stephen Meyers main argument for DNA and information is weak compared to mine.

    Taking this from a background in computer engineering standpoint, I argue that DNA could not have evolved because of the fact its a base 4 system. Lets ask a few questions, why was the binary system based off Boolean logic principles implemented as the sole building blocks of digital circuits? The answer to this question is that a base 2 system is the minimal you need to go from simple to complex, using 1 and 0 representations of electrical signals. Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is the best one. The simplest explanation one can say for DNA base 4 system is that it arose from a base 2 system. The problem with this is that you cannot evolve base systems, as in go from one base system to another. It doesn’t work like that, in fact, you would have to completely re-engineer all of computer hardware and software to upscale to a base 4 system, requiring an extraordinary leap of effort to reproduce the same effects of a base 2. The underlying problem here is that a base 4 system was chosen from the preset. Intelligent Design was required from the preset based on the fact it defies and overrides Occams Razor.

  36. VMartin - #1312

    December 29th 2009

    Professor Darrel Falk.

    If something is at the end can be a matter of discussion. I hope no one doubts that Mendelejev Periodic Table is closed and no one will ever find another element between H and Fe. No one will
    ever find a new prime number less than 1 million.

    According Robert Broom - and Huxley seemed to agree with him - the potentiality of evolution is over. Or in other words - evolution is finished. This point is elucidated in the work by professor John Davison, who informed on his blog that he cannot participate here anymore btw. 

    Great scientists and scholars are not immune towards “Zeitgeist”. Many brilliant minds of the past like Newton, Kopernik, Bruno devoted lot of their energy to astrology and alchemy and art of memory. So if someone is trying nowadays so to say to create a homunkulus in a reagent tube
    he may be a scientist par excellence nevertheless.

  37. RJS - #1313

    December 29th 2009

    VMartin,

    No one will find a new element between H and Fe because we have defined elements by the number of protons and these come in integer units.  To compare this kind of “end” to the end of discussion of a complex theory such as evolution is misleading (the same for prime numbers—1 million integers is a finite testable set).

    Evolution is not finished - as a process, or as a scientific theory.  There are many questions remaining all of which need creative thinking to solve the puzzles.  Even quantum theory and the interaction of light with matter (my area of research and interest) is not at an end - there are (many) puzzles and questions remaining to be answered.  This is why it science is fun.

    Darrel, a character limit is wise - but this is too few.

  38. VMartin - #1314

    December 29th 2009

    nd - #1306

    I hope no one will claim that the Earth is an open system, but the moon is a close system. So the
    arguments on talkorigin are of no value.

    On the other hand I can theoretically live on water and bread. I do not doubt that I am an open system but I doubt that the entropy of bread I am eating is greatwer than the entropy of me. Also I can eat bread that is colder than me, but my temperature will be still greater than bread I am eating. In a way I am a sofisticated device that take energy from cooler matter. If there are any such examples of homeostatic natural devices outside from living organisms let me know. 


    cist - #1311

    You might be right but numbers on IBM Mainframes are held and processed in HEX representation. Its quicker than in bites.  In this case information is held in 4 bites as a whole.

  39. Dan - #1315

    December 29th 2009

    In my thirty years as a scientist I have seen branches of science blossom and I have seen branches of science shrink, but I have never seen a branch of science die.

    VMartin points out that we will never find a new element between H and Fe.  True.  But we have recently found new arrangements such as neutron-rich nuclei of He and Li.

    If, as VMartin claims, “evolution is finished,” then there’s no need for any new flu vaccines, and swine flu cannot infect humans.

    VMartin has already demonstrated that he doesn’t understand elementary thermodynamics.  Now he demonstrates that he doesn’t understand the very character of science.

  40. VMartin - #1316

    December 29th 2009

    Abusive and arrogant presentation of flawed opinions doesn’t make look them more plausible.

    Elents are defined by number of protons.Different numbers of neutrons define isotopes - every student of secondary school should know it.

    Almost all mammalian order have arisen in Eocene and are clearly defined there by paleontology. Practically no new mamallian order has arisen last 30 mil. years.  Those who claim that evolution
    is still in progress like in the distant past had better study a little more.

  41. cist - #1317

    December 29th 2009

    “You might be right but numbers on IBM Mainframes are held and processed in HEX representation. Its quicker than in bites.  In this case information is held in 4 bites as a whole.”

    Hi VMartin,

    HEX representation is used to address computer memory in general, not just in IBM mainframes. Nothing is processed in HEX, it is all processed in binary electrical on and offs under the hood at the transistor to gate level to jk flip flops to registers in CPU’s and what not. HEX is just a natural intuitive way of addressing memory if you have a 32-bit platform means you have 32-bit integer memory addresses or 4 bytes per slot which also implies base 2 ^ 32 possible address space. Notice here that the number of addresses is calculated based on the base 2 system. HEX is simply a 4 byte representation of 32-bits, but 32-bits are still processed via the CPU ALU or whatever logic circuit at some clock rate (HZ). Another thing to note is that HEX and OCTAL are powers of 2, they naturally map out from a base 2. 8 HEX digits are 32 bits long (0xEEEEEEEE), which means 4 bits per HEX digit.

  42. cist - #1318

    December 29th 2009

    contd…

    If there was a missing base system link in computing, it would be the DNA base 4 system.  We use base 2 system, the rest are just representations of the same base 2 system. So if DNA is not a representation, that means it actually uses a base 4 architecture, which means lots of problems for Darwinian Evolution if you think about it. No engineer would be dumb enough to choose a base 4 system because the engineering requirement exceeds a base 2 by several orders of magnitude, this implies that whatever happened with DNA happened for a extremely specific reason rather than just going for a base 2 counterpart. You have to think deeply about this as I have to understand the magnitude of the problem.

  43. cist - #1320

    December 29th 2009

    What VMartin is referring too is that majority of evolutionary development of new body plans (phyla) has terminated, with little left except deterioration and subsequent extinction. The fact is we observe deterioration of the genome. If deterioration means evolution in the same way “scientists” mean evolution from one species to another, then I’m Elvis Presley.

  44. Brian - #1322

    December 29th 2009

    Darrel Falk @ #1308

    Thanks for the reply. 

    First, thanks for the clarification; there are several statements from the article that are testable, and therefore scientific.  For example: “Ribose, along with three closely related sugars, can form from the reaction of two simpler sugars that contain two and three carbon atoms, respectively.”  The problem of course, is that such examples are also quite trivial.  The big-picture claims, the important claims like the ones I quoted at 1281, are unverifiable statements of faith. 

    Second, I’d like to direct your attention to the paragraph in which Szostak discusses how his team “evolved” ribozymes (quotes are in the original).  He says, “we selected…, and we made copies…, and once again we singled those out… we were able to produce ribozymes….”  Do you not find it interesting that when evolution is demonstrated, it is done through the goal-directed manipulation of the material by an intelligent agent—the one thing that is expressly forbidden by all advoctes of the theory?  This example supports intelligent design, not undirected blind-watchmaker evolution.

  45. Brian - #1323

    December 29th 2009

    Continued…

    Third, just for the record, I have no doubts about the enthusiasm, level of engagement or work ethic of any of the researchers involved. 

    Conclusion:  I am one of those people who you say you want to influence, but I’m an educated professional.  Arguments to “please trust me” aren’t going to cut it—especially when the support that you yourself provide is as thin as it is.  This article, like so many other popular evolution pieces, essentially says, “Through a lot of hard work and intelligent intervention, we can create one brick-like structure.  Therefore, its reasonable to believe that the Empire State Building evolved through blind-watchmaker mechanisms.” 

    You’ll have to forgive me for being a little skeptical.

  46. John Kwok - #1325

    December 29th 2009

    VMartin -

    May I recommend reading eminent vertebrate paleobiologist Donald Prothero’s superb “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters”? Or take a look here at this website devoted to the American Museum of Natural History’s “Extreme Mammals” special exhibition, which is on display there through January 3rd, before it departs for a nationwide tour:

    http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/extrememammals/index.php

    Both provide extensive evidence demonstrating that there’s been a lot of mammalian evolution since the Eocene.

  47. VMartin - #1330

    December 29th 2009

    cist-

    I only remember studying once Assembler that I read that HEX representation (or packed decimal ) is used in micropocessor as the best imaginable solution regarding efficiency. I forgot details. Of course you have to know seeing F that it is HEX 15 or 1111.
    But your hypothesis about base 4 of genetic code sounds quite original. On the other hand many codes are degenarate - 64 codes for 20 aminoacids is too much.  What do you think?


    John Kwok.

    Professor Davison put in clearly in his blog entry - “Evolution is finished”, so I am not going to
    repeat all his arguments especially when he is banned here. It is quite a suprising fact, considering all abusive posts here like from Dan, who presents himself as a scientist with 30 years experience and yet doesn’t know how to tell apart elements and their isotopes. Mutation of viruses can be percieved as evolution also only in the bizarre neodarwinian definition of “evolution”.

  48. John Kwok - #1332

    December 29th 2009

    Dan,

    I am by training a former invertebrate paleobiologist, so my own knowledge of molecular biology is limited. But Dan is absolutely right with respect to viruses and viral vaccines. May I suggest that if you don’t accept evolution as valid, that you don’t take a flu shot (since flu vaccine development does rely upon our current understanding of evolution)? May I also suggest that you look up research by Yale University virologist Paul Turner? I think he would strongly differ with your observation, so replete in its breathtaking inanity.

  49. Bilbo - #1339

    December 29th 2009

    Darrel,

    You, as other RNA -world proponents, fail to mention that all the prebiotic experiments are carried out with purefied chemicals, in very carefully sequenced reactions…something that never would have happened in pre-biotic conditions.  The agnostic chemist Robert Shapiro has said this over and over ad nauseam, apparently to no avail. 

    So continue to believe in the RNA-world.  But it is a religious faith that carries you on, not a scientific one.

  50. VMartin - #1340

    December 29th 2009

    John Kwok.

    1)
    I have no doubt that in a neodarwinian mind mutation of viruses prove evolution. Boldly extrapolating such mutations the darwinian mind has no problem in creating fantastic images that exactly such mutations also led evolution from an ancient fish to man.

    2)
    “Intellectually-challenged fools” are actually those whose deteriorated minds have accepted darwinism as a valid explanation of mystery of origin of man.

    Accusing professor Davison of not understanding evolution etc… reminds me past times when those who opose communism in Russia were labeled as not understanding marxisms and were even locked in insane asylums.

    This fanatical approach against their critics have darwinists and communists obviosly common.

  51. nd - #1341

    December 29th 2009

    VMartin (#‘1314): this discussion isn’t really about thermodynamics, so I won’t take up any more bandwidth after this. Briefly: if the second law were to show that modern biology is wrong, every physicist would proclaim this with delight from the rooftops! Biologists (or “stamp collectors” as we prefer to call them) simply couldn’t stop us. The fact is, however, that thermodynamics and evolution are perfectly compatible. I know that you don’t agree, but your comments about thermodynamics suggest that you don’t really know much about it. Be honest - can you state its zeroth, first, and third laws? Do you know how thermodynamic temperature is defined, or what a heat engine is? Can you define enthalpy, Gibbs and Helmholtz free energies? All of these topics (apart from the third law) were covered in the first term of my undergraduate Physics degree, so they are not particularly advanced. If you can’t answer these questions, accept that you don’t know enough about thermodynamics and either learn about it or use other arguments. There is no shame in not knowing everything - there are plenty of topics discussed above that I (as a physicist) would not engage with, because I know that I do not know enough about them.

  52. Dan - #1342

    December 29th 2009

    Biblo says, to Darrel Falk:

    “So continue to believe in the RNA-world.  But it is a religious faith that carries you on, not a scientific one.”

    I see no evidence that Dr. Falk “believes” in the RNA-world.  It is a scientific possibility, and it is worth scientific investigation.  Those investigations might or might not confirm the possibility.

    This is in contrast to those like Dr. Meyer who claim, on flimsy basis, that the RNA-world hypothesis could never lead to anything fruitful.

  53. VMartin - #1344

    December 29th 2009

    nd-

    These arguments repeat here again and again. We critics of darwinism do not understand
    science etc… I wonder if Margulis or Pholginghorne dismissing darwinism do not understand science as well.


    I didn’t say anything about 3rd law. I simply claimed that living organisms violate the law of entropy which claims that “energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy rather than decrease it”. It is also known as the 2nd law. I think every one can see it in ontogeny. I am not the first who
    claim this. If all those who claim it do not understand “science” and by “science” is also meant neodarwinism it’s fine with me. I am in a good company.

  54. VMartin - #1345

    December 29th 2009

    John Kwok wrote he is a Deist. Frankly I am quite surprised by some Deists and Christians here who embrace neodarwinism. Actually I am from Eastern Europe, Slovakia and never heard
    of this intellectual combination: Christain-neodarwinist. Sounds like Christian-atheist to me in the first hearing.

    Guys do you think that spirit exists?
    Do you think that human spirit is an epiphenomenon of matter, of darwinian evolution?
    Or it was bestowed upon us by God and is immortal? In the second case is it in accordance with neodarwinism?

  55. William N. Kerney - #1346

    December 29th 2009

    Ernst Mayr tells us that evolution is believed only because other ideas are rejected.

    The greatest triumph of Darwinism is that the theory of natural selection, for 80 years after 1859 a minority opinion, is now the prevailing explanation of evolutionary change. It must be admitted, however, that it has achieved this position less by the amount of irrefutable proofs it has been able to present than by the default of all the opposing theories

    Ernst Mayr, Toward a New Philosophy of Biology, (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1988), 192.

      Once Lenski tested for evolution it turned out that evolution was falsified.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899

  56. KBryan - #1350

    December 29th 2009

    “So there is one simple question to be addressed.  Is the science at a dead end?  Has Dr. Meyer demonstrated this or not? “

    No, and no. For an excellent overview of the recent research in abiogenesis, see Robert Hazen’s book _Genesis: The Scientific Quest for Life’s Origins_ or his Teaching Company course on the same material:

    http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=1515

    http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Scientific-Quest-Lifes-Origins/dp/0309094321/

    Meyer’s arguments are well thought out and well presented, but they’re rehashing the old God-of-the-Gaps.

  57. John Kwok - #1352

    December 29th 2009

    @ VMartin -

    Your questions are irrelevant, since they do not pertain at all to science. I am interested in discussing excellent science and seeing it taught in science classrooms only wihtout any “accompanying” mendacious intellectual porn like Intelligent Design creationism and other flavors of creationism.

  58. Dan - #1357

    December 29th 2009

    VMartin “claimed that living organisms violate the law of entropy which claims that “energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy rather than decrease it”. It is also known as the 2nd law.”

    Wrong again.  For one thing ... what is an “energy system”?  For a second ... the second law in entropy form pertains to isolated systems, and your quote omits that.  For a third ... the second law deals with what happens, not what “tends to happen.”

    Finally, this is a perverse way to approach the second law.  The best way is by saying “a warm body heats a cold body”.  I admit that this is logically equivalent to “the entropy of an isolated system always increases” (as is proven in, for example, Fermi’s book “Thermodynamics”) but the logical chain between the two is very long and involves a lot of calculus.  Better to start with the simple statement “a warm body heats a cold body”.

    It is not a violation of the second law for a person to eat bread and use it to get warm, any more than it’s a violation for a piece of wood to burn and get warm.

  59. Dan - #1358

    December 29th 2009

    I see that VMartin holds many misconceptions about thermodynamics.  I recommend Jearl Walker’s “Fundamentals of Physics”.  This is the text I use when teaching introductory thermodynamics.  (In the senior-level course I use Dan Schroeder’s book.  But I also like Fermi’s golden oldie “Thermodynamics”.)

  60. Dan - #1359

    December 29th 2009

    William N. Kerney claims “Ernst Mayr tells us that evolution is believed only because other ideas are rejected.”

    In fact, no one believes in evolution.  To believe means to hold absolutely on the basis of faith.  Scientists don’t believe in evolution, or in atomic theory, or even in the round-earth theory.

    Instead, we hold these ideas tentatively, and on the basis of evidence.  Every scientist I know is willing to give up evolution, or atomiticity, or the round-earth theory, provided someone provides evidence.

    As Darrel Falk describes so well, Meyer provides no such evidence.

  61. KBryan - #1363

    December 29th 2009

    @Dan: “I see that VMartin holds many misconceptions about thermodynamics.  I recommend Jearl Walker’s “Fundamentals of Physics”.  This is the text I use when teaching introductory thermodynamics.”

    I always recommend _Warmth Disperses and Time Passes: The History of Heat_. It’s a fantastic popular level introduction to Thermodynamics, light on the math. It places special emphasis on the second law.

    http://www.amazon.com/Warmth-Disperses-Time-Passes-Paperbacks/dp/0375753729

  62. Steve Cherry - #1364

    December 29th 2009

    Might I suggest a keyword filter for this site which limits a user to one or two max uses of the word “mendacious” ?  From the intensity of the name calling, I think I must buy this book and see what all the hubbub is over.

    I do seem to detect quite a strong theme in this review which attempts to paint Mr Meyer as nothing more than a “philosopher.”

    Is there any chance that we in San Diego might get to see a really good live (and civil) exchange between Mr Falk and Mr Meyer?  Or, maybe even Mr Dembski?

  63. Steve Cherry - #1365

    December 29th 2009

    Mr Falk, you have also suggested in the past that men such as Meyer and Behe and Dembski are “bordering on the heretical” for promoting irreducible complexity.  Is there any chance you might be engaged live at PLNU to talk about these claims?  (hopefully w/out mention of the word “mendacious”).  Also - Mr Falk, thank you very much for your kind discourse and calls for polite discussion - it is refreshing.

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9nyuzo From the article:

    “However, the notion that irreducibly complex structures are built and put in place by a meticulous detail-driven intelligent designer is not consistent with Christian theology and should not have been embraced by Christians. With all due respect to my friends who hold this view, I would venture to say it borders on the heretical—certainly it is scientifically heretical, but I wonder if it is not theologically so as well.”

  64. Dan - #1367

    December 29th 2009

    KBryan said

    ”@Dan: “I see that VMartin holds many misconceptions about thermodynamics.  I recommend Jearl Walker’s “Fundamentals of Physics”.  This is the text I use when teaching introductory thermodynamics.”

    I always recommend _Warmth Disperses and Time Passes: The History of Heat_. It’s a fantastic popular level introduction to Thermodynamics, light on the math. It places special emphasis on the second law.”

    Thanks!  I’ll have a look at it.  I always admire those who take on the very tough task of teaching a technical subject, like thermodynamics, without using the technical tools, like calculus, that were used to discover it.

    In this regard I wish to disrecommend Peter Atkins’s book “The Second Law”.  Atkins makes a number of subtle errors.

  65. DKDK - #1378

    December 30th 2009

    cist - #1311 (December 29th 2009) said:

    “Taking this from a background in computer engineering standpoint, I argue that DNA could not have evolved because of the fact its a base 4 system. “

    What is the requirement that a base 4 system be used?  That DNA happens to use 4 nucleotides is not evidence of any intelligent design.  Six could just as well have been used, or eight, unique nucleotides, assuming each had to be paired.  Two might not have given great diversity, but starting with two, two others could just as well have evolved as mutations from the first two, thus your base 2 evolving into a base 4.  Nonetheless, there is no requirement that only 4 nucleotides define a DNA molecule.

    Indeed, the whole argument of DNA corresponding to a computer program is nonsense, unless one considers that every program written has flaws in it, just like every DNA molecule, pointing to the fact that the “Great Designer” was not very good to begin with.

  66. VMartin - #1380

    December 30th 2009

    Whatever you say, the basic fact is this one - living organisms keep themselves in a highly
    improbable state despite of all irreversible processes which take place in them.

    And in evolution organisms evolve to even higher unprobable states towards greater differentiation and greater organization of matter.

    Those facts means only one for me - the law of entropy desn’t help understand the process at all.
    I didn’t say it is thermodynamicaly impossible as such.

  67. Mike from Ottawa - #1382

    December 30th 2009

    ”... they might see significance in engaging the ID scientists for a public forum.”

    You took issue with Meyer’s characterization of origins researchers as cranks.  You pointed out how Meyer repeatedly says things are at a dead end even as significant advances were being made in moving beyond that supposed dead end.

    While ID proponents have been claiming for 200 years (vide Paley) that various things can’t have arisen naturally, scientists basing their work in methodological naturalism have made huge strides in actually figuring out how organisms have evolved and recently in figuring out how life itself may have arisin (despite the difficulty of working on an event 3,500,000,000 years ago.  The ID proponents on the other hand have busied themselves with things like the vile and mendacious ‘Expelled’.

    As you yourself pointed out of Meyer’s book “If the object of the book is to show that the Intelligent Design movement is a scientific movement, it has not succeeded.” and yet its proponents laud the book as the best the ID movement has.

    With all the above in mind, why would scientists see significance in engaging “ID scientists” in a public forum?

  68. cist - #1387

    December 30th 2009

    DKDK:

    “your base 2 evolving into a base 4.”

    Here you don’t know what you are talking about, Biologists don’t seem to understand the engineering requirements. Simple fact is you can’t evolve bases.

    “Indeed, the whole argument of DNA corresponding to a computer program is nonsense”

    DNA does not correspond to a computer program, it corresponds to the hardware running the program.

    Fail.

  69. John Kwok - #1396

    December 30th 2009

    @ Mike from Ottawa -

    Thanks for chiming in. I know several prominent critics of Intelligent Design creationism who think it’s a waste of time trying to “discuss” issues with so-called ID “scientists”. I concur. It is absolutely pointless to discuss anything with those who seek only to respond to their critics by means most foul and reprehensible, and who have never demonstrated any willingness to subject their ideas to rigorous scientific examinations via their own well-established research programs and to subject the results of such research to rigorous scientific peer review. Instead we see countless instances of deceit, ranging from blatant lies to bearing false witness against their critics, and even outright theft. Dialogue with the likes of these? What an absurd notion indeed.

  70. Lutheran - #1397

    December 30th 2009

    John Kwak wrote:

    “Given the most un-Christian behavior exhibited by Meyer and his colleagues, do you still think that one should seek any reasonable dialogue with Intelligent Design advocates (most of whom are Fundamentalist Protestant “Christians”.)? I sincerely hope that you will agree with me that the answer must be most certainly, “No!”.”

    Ad hominem arguments are not my favourite. Especially, when someone is arguing, that because someone (Dembski) has done something, one should seek any reasonable dialogue with Meyer (another person). And calling protestants “Christians” (in quotes) is ... hmm.. something I don’t favor.

    I enjoid mostly Falk’s review. The point about Joyce was something I didn’t understand.  If Meyer concluded that no RNA molecule had ever been evolved in a test tube, and then Joyce and Lincoln have produced cross-replicating RNA enzymes (which is far from producing RNA molecule), what followes then?

  71. Dan - #1408

    December 30th 2009

    VMartin says “Those facts [of evolution] means only one for me - the law of entropy desn’t help understand the process at all.
    I didn’t say it is thermodynamicaly impossible as such.”

    You’re absolutely correct that the second law of thermodynamics doesn’t help understand the process of evolution at all.  Just as it doesn’t help understand the process of golf at all, or the process of plumbing at all.

    So why did you bring it up?

  72. Elf M. Sternberg - #1423

    December 30th 2009

    I am someone who is firmly convinced that the Discovery Institute constitutes a deliberately crafted campaign to, by hook or by crook, displace methodological naturalism, and thereby wreck the most successful investigative paradigm yet for extending our control over nature. 

    I was especially disappointed that Meyer, in public, wants more discussion of the weakness of evolution while resting a huge weight of his own work on Dembski’s, while not noting the overwhelming weakness and poor reception of Dembski’s work.

    Toward the end, Meyer makes a strange plea to distinguish ID as a “historical science” rather than one that leads to a robust and reliable research program.  His analogy was poor, using historical events about which we can be reasonably certain, while failing to look into those about which we are only vaguely aware.  Meyer makes ID look like the latter, and his closing excuse of it reads more like a late-night drunken dorm room bull session than an actual investigation, scientific or philosophical, into the nature of our origins.

  73. Bilbo - #1434

    December 30th 2009

    We are reasonably certain that the cell as we know existed about 3.5 billion years ago.  Historical science is concerned with explaining how it came into existence.  The RNA world scenario is scientifically implausible, but clung to by people desperate not to admit that the cell was designed.

  74. John Kwok - #1435

    December 30th 2009

    @ Elf -

    Thanks for your link to the Wedge Document, which ought to be read by anyone who is interested in the Discovery Institute’s motives.

    As for Meyer’s “distinction” between experimental and historical sciences, it is exceedingly poor and hopelessly naive, which are both surprising in light of Meyer’s graduate school training. If there is anythine he excels in that particular chapter, then it is doing a fantatic job quoting Stephen Jay Gould. Unfortunately for Meyer his observations are not consistent with what Gould himself believed in.

  75. John Kwok - #1436

    December 30th 2009

    More typos, now corrected -

    As for Meyer’s “distinction” between experimental and historical sciences, it is exceedingly poor and hopelessly naive, which are both surprising in light of Meyer’s graduate school training. If there is anything he excels in that particular chapter, then it is doing a fantastic job quoting Stephen Jay Gould. Unfortunately for Meyer his observations are not consistent with what Gould himself believed in.
    .

  76. Mike from Ottawa - #1443

    December 30th 2009

    I would note that cist’s comments are based on the apparent belief that Occam’s razor is a law of the physical universe.  That is not the case.  Occam’s razor is an essentially aesthetic principle for provisionally choosing between competing explanations for a phenomenon.

  77. Mike from Ottawa - #1444

    December 30th 2009

    “Especially, when someone is arguing, that because someone (Dembski) has done something, one should seek any reasonable dialogue with Meyer (another person).”

    Indeed, however, Meyer is in bed with the folk behind ‘Expelled’, as Meyer supports the claim that ID proponents are oppressed and shut out of science unfairly.  His involvement with Sternberg’s sleight of hand, parthian shot publication of one of his review articles in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington itself speaks volumes about whether Meyer is acting in good faith.

    Dress it up how you like it, but you can’t expect reasonable dialogue between scientists and someone who relies on 20 year old quotes about origins researchers being cranks.

    When ID proponents come up with some actual, useful science that gives some insight newer than Paley’s ‘it’s too complicated to be natural’, then it will be time for some dialogue.

  78. Jean - #1453

    December 30th 2009

    Is this thread moderated or what? Please someone shut up Kwok, he is stiffling interesting discussion with ad hominems and unpleasant fallacious rhetoric. In short, he stinks up this thread.

  79. cist - #1454

    December 30th 2009

    John Kwok,

    Claiming ID is anti-evolution is not going to help your agenda. ID’ers make very specific claims which aren’t discussed in the public openly (tv, media etc…) because they aren’t yet fully developed, science is an ongoing process as you may know.Front-loading for example, makes very specific claims which are rarely discussed in the public sphere, not many understand the concept. How many people know about prokaryotes and stromatolites, and how this supports the panspermia hypothesis (not that I lean in that direction, but its a possibility)? ISCID and a few pro-ID sites have gone into the details of many proposed hypothesis mostly mathematically and/or based on current and past evidence (the evidence that Darwinians shove into the corner) , alot has been discussed, and its true that very little has been tested in the laboratory. If ID is wrong about everything as you say, then surely testing these ideas unbiasedly will have little to no effect on current thinking. Thinking outside the box doesn’t hurt, challenging ideas will only improve upon our current understanding.

  80. William N. Kerney - #1455

    December 30th 2009

    Dan:

    Instead, we hold these ideas tentatively, and on the basis of evidence.

    Ernest Mayr’s point was that people believe in evolution by finding fault with every other possibility as opposed to believing in it based on evidence.

    Richard Lenski has prefomed a test for natural selection and it turns out that the rate at which ‘key innovations’ are created is too low for evolution to be real )about 10^20 population size).  It took something like 50 billion mutations to create a feature that already existed in other E. coli (the ability to metabolize citrate).

  81. beaglelady - #1458

    December 30th 2009

    Is this thread moderated or what? Please someone shut up Kwok, he is stiffling interesting discussion with ad hominems and unpleasant fallacious rhetoric. In short, he stinks up this thread.

    This isn’t www.uncommondescent.com, where so many have been banned for disagreeing with them.

  82. John Kwok - #1462

    December 30th 2009

    @ cist -

    The problem with your analysis is that Intelligent Design advocates like Meyer have yet to subject any of their ideas to rigorous scientific tests, followed by scientific peer review. They’ve had more than twenty years to present their case before the scientific community but instead of playing by the rules of science, they insist that they are being “persecuted” as they commit lies, theft and other forms of deceit against their critics.

    As eminent philosopher of science Philip Kitcher has pointed out recently, Intelligent Design was once an important concept which inspired scientific research from the 16th through 18th centuries. It no longer serves the purpose since it was rejected as valid science by genuine “scientific” creationists nearly two centuries ago. For this reason, Kitcher regards Intelligent Design as “dead science”. In light of the morally reprehensible conduct of its proponents, including Meyer, I believe it should be regarded too as mendacious intellectual pornography.

  83. John Kwok - #1464

    December 30th 2009

    @ William N. Kerney -

    You are selectively reading and misinterpreting what Mayer wrote and what Lenski and his team have accomplished. If evolution isn’t true, then may I suggest you forget getting a flu shot, since flu vaccine development is based on applied evolutionary biology (epidemiology).

  84. John Kwok - #1465

    December 30th 2009

    Correction to previous comment -

    I meant Ernst Mayr, not Mayer.

  85. Steve Cherry - #1473

    December 31st 2009

    beaglelady:

    You could not be more wrong about UD - I also spend time there and you only get tossed at UD for mass posting “DoS attacks” (as demonstrated here by a certain user who has used up about 25% of this discussion space).  You also have to stay on topic, and lastly, you need to avoid ad hominem.  I see much civil discourse there as well from detractors who choose to stay on topic and debate the actual post content.  They have no issues, so I think your complaint is actually user error.  Also - if you think for a minute that dissent is tolerated at PThumb or Pharyngula, you obviously have not tasted “discourse” there from the other side. 


    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”  - Inigo Montoya

  86. VMartin - #1475

    December 31st 2009

    @Jean 1453

    asked if this thread is moderated.

    As far as I know it is. Professor John Davison has been banned from instance.
    He informed and commented about this fact on his blog.

    Ad hominem attacks are maybe ok as long as you are a darwinist. I have been denigrated
    here as well here. Such attacks are common in neodarwinian pits like EvC forum, Antievolution.org and RichardDawkins.net.

    What is enchanting is the fact that in those forums also admins denigrate and abuse
    critics of neodarwinian fallacy. Of course their arguments are weak. The main argument is always this one: “Darwinists are publishing in peer-reviewed journals, they must be doing real science!”

    No one makes so much fuss about “science” as darwinists.

  87. cist - #1478

    December 31st 2009

    John Kwok,

    The problem with your ramblings is that there is always a flip side to them. While Darwinists such as you see ID proponents (so few that they are) as liars, crooks etc…we ID’ers see so many Darwinists as the same; liars and crooks who use the mass media to their advantage and who steal tax money for their broken science and logic. I wouldn’t care less if Dembski stole an apple here and there, he’s at an overall disadvantage, its expected of him.

    Please leave religion out of the discussion Kwok, you don’t believe in Jesus Christ yet you tell us what Jesus Christ would do to someone you don’t believe in either.

  88. cist - #1479

    December 31st 2009

    “As eminent philosopher of science Philip Kitcher has pointed out recently, Intelligent Design was once an important concept which inspired scientific research from the 16th through 18th centuries. It no longer serves the purpose since it was rejected as valid science by genuine “scientific” creationists nearly two centuries ago. For this reason, Kitcher regards Intelligent Design as “dead science”. In light of the morally reprehensible conduct of its proponents, including Meyer, I believe it should be regarded too as mendacious intellectual pornography.”

    Excuse me Kwok but 16th century science is dead, how can 16th century science decide what is taught in the 21st century? Science changes, don’t blame the DI, blame advances in technology that directly and indirectly support it.We are simply adapting to the evidence.

  89. beaglelady - #1495

    December 31st 2009

    You could not be more wrong about UD - I also spend time there and you only get tossed at UD for mass posting “DoS attacks” (as demonstrated here by a certain user who has used up about 25% of this discussion space).  You also have to stay on topic, and lastly, you need to avoid ad hominem.  I see much civil discourse there as well from detractors who choose to stay on topic and debate the actual post content.  They have no issues, so I think your complaint is actually user error.  Also - if you think for a minute that dissent is tolerated at PThumb or Pharyngula, you obviously have not tasted “discourse” there from the other side.

    UD is more tolerant now, but when DaveScot was moderator people were banned left and right.  “X is no longer with us”  was his way of saying that X had been banned.

  90. John Kwok - #1497

    December 31st 2009

    @ cist -

    Ask Philip Kitcher yourself. He merely states that ID was once useful to science. Its usefulness ceased nearly two centuries ago, which is why he regards it as “dead science”.

  91. Jean - #1501

    December 31st 2009

    “I recommend you read Paul R. Gross and Barbara Forrest’s “Creationism’s Trojan Horse”

    Read it quite a while ago, not impressed. Spare me the secular humanism.  Sorry John Kwok, but most atheists do not impress me, especially when they ramble on about “ID creationism”.

    Again, is this thread moderated? Why are numerous ad hominem remarks tolerated? I seriously doubt this site wants to devolve to the gutter level of PT or PZ Meyers’ blog.

  92. Bilbo - #1503

    December 31st 2009

    John wrote: As for Meyer’s “distinction” between experimental and historical sciences, it is exceedingly poor and hopelessly naive,

    Not at all.

  93. Bilbo - #1504

    December 31st 2009

    John Kwok wrote that Meyer’s distinction between experimental and historical science was exceedingly poor and naive.  But the atheist philosopher of science, Bradley Mondon agrees that ID is an historical science, also.  Kwok needs to substantiate his claim to be taken seriously.

  94. Mike from Ottawa - #1510

    December 31st 2009

    Sorry, cist, but despite your wishes, the evidence that has piled up over the last several hundred years of science weighs in favour of methodological naturalism and not the supernaturalism of ID.  ID has been barren and even today does no more than Meyer does with it and pronounce that some field of inquiry is dead.  Unfortunately for ID, those dead fields are still alive and scientists, as opposed to philosophers of science and computer engineers, are making new inroads into problems that we’ve not yet solved.  What has ID got to show for itself in the way of scientific knowledge and understanding?  Nada.

    It is notable that it is only outsiders who’ve never dirtied themselves actually trying to solve the problems of the origins of life who pronounce it impossible.

  95. beaglelady - #1511

    December 31st 2009

    You could not be more wrong about UD - I also spend time there and you only get tossed at UD for mass posting “DoS attacks” (as demonstrated here by a certain user who has used up about 25% of this discussion space).  You also have to stay on topic, and lastly, you need to avoid ad hominem.  I see much civil discourse there as well from detractors who choose to stay on topic and debate the actual post content.  They have no issues, so I think your complaint is actually user error.  Also - if you think for a minute that dissent is tolerated at PThumb or Pharyngula, you obviously have not tasted “discourse” there from the other side.

    Then I guess you weren’t participating when DaveScot was running the show at UD. “X is no longer with us” was his usual refrain, meaning that X had been banned. It happened often.

    As for the Pandas Thumb it is rare for someone to be totally banned from the site. If someone is vile and keeps hijacking threads he is usually confined to the “Bathroom Wall.” 

    It is true that the Pandas Thumb folks will criticize creationism in all its forms, but it is a science blog.

  96. John Kwok - #1515

    December 31st 2009

    cist -

    You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. It is Kitcher, not yours truly, who has acknowledged that while Intelligent Design was important from the 16th through 18th Centuries in influencing some then groundbreaking scientific research, it ceased its usefulness around the time William Paley wrote his grand exposition supporting it (which, I might add, was an early intellectual influence on the young Charles Darwin prior to the HMS Beagle voyage).

  97. John Kwok - #1516

    December 31st 2009

    cist -

    Eminent biologists like Ken Miller, Niles Eldredge and Paul Gross (in collaboration with philosopher Barbara Forrest) have stressed the dangers posed by the Discovery Institute’s “revolutionary” - and it is indeed revolutionary - advocacy of Intelligent Design creationism (If you want the most succinct, best stated case, then read Ken’s “Only A Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul” in which Ken clearly states the dire threat to America’s economic, cultural and educational future posed by the Discovery Institute and its fanatical advocacy of Intelligent Design creationism.).

  98. Mere_Christian - #1624

    January 4th 2010

    Using math, even evolution is intelligent design. Unless of course “science” can show us something creating itself in a a lab built spontaneously out of nothing too.

    But putting that reality aside, what is the “mission” of BioLogos again? It appears to be an anti ID networking site. Albeit, a polite attack group, but none the less, what’s going on here?

    Evolutionarians versus Idites?

    Now I thought when it comes to science, the minority opinion is always trumpeted as being so worthwhile, while the wagging heads of intolerance to change were the bad guys.

    I know, I know, I’m “just a layperson,” but B-L sure looks like a Dawkins and Harris fan club to me. I mean “scientists” sure seem to be able to role in the mud like any other tough guy. And it hardly seems like B-L misses a chance to denigrate Christians that do not kowtow to darwinism.

    Just an observation.

  99. Pastor Harvey Burnett - #2044

    January 8th 2010

    Mere_Christian said, “I know, I know, I’m “just a layperson,” but B-L sure looks like a Dawkins and Harris fan club to me.”

    AMEN! Totally agree as I read the info and rebuttals.

    Laypersons can understand this stuff too. If they can write it in a book, we can learn it and from what I’ve learned statements like this: “However, while the book was in press, Gerald Joyce and Tracey Lincoln published an article in Science in which they demonstrated that evolved-RNA can take on a second function, the all-important replication activity”

    Statements like these are highly deceptive if not boarderline irresponsible. First of all it’s talking about “evolved RNA” Secondly this is a type of intelligent design as conditions are manipulated to produuce the results.

    BioLogos, I don’t see the value of your arguments and you’re further hard pressed to provide any type of biblical exeget of how “God breathed” the breath of life into man or communicated his attributes to him.  I’m not a fundamentalist, but your alternate approach is void and one of the worst compromises and equivocations on the issue that I’ve seen.

  100. cist - #2149

    January 9th 2010

    “Eminent biologists like Ken Miller, Niles Eldredge and Paul Gross (in collaboration with philosopher Barbara Forrest) have stressed the dangers posed by the Discovery Institute’s “revolutionary” - and it is indeed revolutionary - advoca…”

    I’m sorry Kwok, but this type of “he says she says” isn’t going to cut it. I’m not sure what appending “creationism” is meant for, you seem to use it almost like an action verb where its supposed to pull ID up by the boot straps, which is nonsense. Even if all ID proponents were Christian (and that is of course a big false) it does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that the case for ID has been decoded from Christianity - it has only correlation. Ken Millers book title is self-refuting if America has a soul which derived from Darwinian mechanisms.Obviously, Darwinian mechanism’s cannot produce a soul, only maybe a belief in a soul. This is going back to religion-talk Kwok.

  101. cist - #2151

    January 9th 2010

    “You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. It is Kitcher, not yours truly, who has acknowledged that while Intelligent Design was important from the 16th through 18th Centuries in influencing some then groundbreaking scientific research, it ceased its usefulness around the time William Paley wrote his grand exposition supporting it (which, I might add, was an early intellectual influence on the young Charles Darwin prior to the HMS Beagle voyage).”

    How much did William Paley and Charles Darwin know about cellular automata? Not much Kwok. Paleys watch idea was false in his day, but true in ours.

  102. cist - #2152

    January 9th 2010

    ” ...ot yet solved.  What has ID got to show for itself in the way of scientific knowledge and understanding?  Nada.”

    Once again, will appending “supernaturalism” to ID expose its true roots or pull it up by its boot straps into creationism state, where we begin by reading genesis 1:1? Scientists are reverse engineers by definition. Engineers borrow bits and pieces of this knowledge and put it back into a state of usefulness, rendering a feedback effect. The primary question to ask is have scientists reverse engineered evolution and all its counterparts? If you were trying to explain how a skyscraper came into being would you not start by investigating how it works by examining all the little details before you assumed how it unfolded? Darwin, for example, seemed to have started with how these skyscrapers unfolded, and while up till not too long ago we have started investigating how it all works. This is the flawed approach with evolutionary biologists that distinguish them from many other scientific disciplines, especially the engineering side.

  103. cist - #2185

    January 10th 2010

    “As for the Pandas Thumb it is rare for someone to be totally banned from the site. If someone is vile and keeps hijacking threads he is usually confined to the “Bathroom Wall.” “

    I’m not sure of this “Pandas Thumb”, there seems to be a lack of science there.

  104. John Kwok - #2391

    January 12th 2010

    @ Pastor Burnett -

    I am a Deist and a registered Republican who regards himself as a Conservative with very pronounced Libertarian biases. I am not a fan of Harris and Dawkins’s “evangelizing” on behalf of New Atheism. But I agree with their harsh condemnation of creationism - including Intelligent Design - and, in fact, have observed that all forms of creationism should be viewed as mendacious intelellectual pornography.

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

  105. John Kwok - #2450

    January 12th 2010

    @ Pastor Burnett -

    As a man of the “cloth”, how can you defend the acts of fellow “Christians” who believe that it is well within their right to lie, to cheat, to steal, and to deceive otherwise, so long as it is done in the name of Christ ( which, sadly, is what we see all too often from the Discovery Institute and other creationists). Shouldn’t this disturb your conscience? While I am not a Christian, I am a Deist, and such acts do disturb mine.

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

    P. S. Webmaster - if this comment is deleted, it will be so noted and reported over at Panda’s Thumb. Do I make myself perfectly clear?

  106. Dave Wisker - #2715

    January 15th 2010

    Dr Falk,

    I greatly enjoyed your review. I also share your dismay at Meyer’s dismissal of Micheal Lynch’s work, with which I am very familiar. One of the most irritating features of the IDM, for me, is this tendency to disparage or downplay the work of first-class scientists like Lynch, without, as you pointed out, not even offering up one paper or study to refute it.

    As a graduate student in Molecular Ecology, antics like that make me seethe, because laypeople and biology students just starting out are often swayed by them, and it falls on us to spend precious class and seminar exposing their scienbtific bankruptcy.

  107. Jim - #3685

    January 30th 2010

    I don’t believe Meyer’s ever says science is at a dead end on any point.  He says the best inference from the facts as we understand them today point to a certain direction.  It seems like the materialists such as Richard Dawkins are guilty of saying the science has already proven beyond discussion something that it has clearly not.

  108. AJF - #6221

    March 8th 2010

    “There is no question that large amounts information have been created by materialistic forces over the past several hundred million years.”

    Excuse me, what kind of information?  The specified variety detailed in SITC?  Please provide empirical evidence of specified information (as defined in SITC) created by materialistic forces in the last billion years.

    You criticize Meyer for dismissing Michael Lynch in one sentence (which is not true actually, I checked, and you mischaracterized his comments on Lynch), yet you dismiss 500 pages of argument articulating the case for “specified information” in one sentence.  That’s the cornerstone of the entire book!

    Sorry, not so easy.  You’ll have to do better than that.

  109. Ide Trotter, Ph.D., RIA - #12204

    May 3rd 2010

    I find myself in substantial agreement with AJF but would like to add this thought to the discussion.  Faulk dismisses the discussion of the origin of information rather abruptly it seems me when he says, “Many scientists think that as life began, its source of information was found in RNA molecules. There are specialized reasons for this, which are not germane to the point I want to make. ”

    I find this statement most surprising. If the point Faulk seeks to make is that Meyer’s arguments are not well founded it would appear that the source of the first specified information is not just germane but is actually central to any discussion of the merits of Meyer’s fundamental argument.

    I’ve made attempts to get this issue clearly addressed elsewhere both on BioLogos and on ASA blogs to no effect so far.  I’m not prepared to argue that there will be eventual agreement that the information source problem will drive naturalism from it’s central position in science quite yet.  But what I would like to see more clearly and convincingly explained is why some otherwise very rational minds are prepared to dismiss the issue so cavalierly.

  110. Ide Trotter, Ph.D., RIA - #12205

    May 3rd 2010

    Further to the above. 

    I don’t see origin as a TE/EC vs. ID issue at all.  To my way of thinking TE/EC considerations don’t come into play until after the first replicator is somehow established.  However this is not to say that information source questions do not come into play as the TE/EC mechanism, whatever it may be, progresses to higher levels of complexity. Therein may lie the resolution of the question I can’t get out of my head. On what a priori basis can one differentiate between common descent and common design?”

  111. Charles Austerberry - #15644

    May 30th 2010

    Ide, perhaps one example that might be helpful in differentiating between common descent and common design would be human chromosome #2 compared to chromosomes in great apes.  Francis Collins and others have told that story in various books and articles. Certainly one could hold (not on a scientific basis, but from a faith perspective) that the fusion which created human chromosome #2 was designed. In any case, the human chromosome #2 structure provides powerful evidence for common ancestry, regardless of whether one views the history of human evolution to have been designed or not.

    Cheers!

    Chuck

  112. Bogz - #22377

    July 19th 2010

    Kwok, you claim to be a deist. Tell me on what basis do you opt for deism? 1) Because classic theism [orthodox Christianity] is indefensible? Have you carefully weighed the historical, and philosophical-theological evidence advanced by the best apolgists on the issue? (e.g. NT Wright, WL Craig, Os Guinness etc) If not then why are you so sure that it’s just a bunch of lies (i get this “feeling” from your comments)? ( 2) Or are you a deist because it’s the “safest” (cowardly!) position? You know for a fact that pure naturalism is completely bankrupt to answer the questions of the origin of the cosmos and abiogenesis so you don’t call yourself an atheist to escape the responsibility of having to explain both (an impossibility!) on the grounds of materialism. It’s a convenient excuse. Yet you side with the “new atheists” in their wrongheaded agenda to rid the world of all this stupid superstition (deism included). You seem to want your cake and eat it too. Practical atheism is an indefensible position when discussing such matters. C’mmon Kwok show us your true colors.

  113. Blake - #23856

    July 29th 2010

    You: “However, while the book was in press, Gerald Joyce and Tracey Lincoln published an article [...] So another dead-end pronouncement by Meyer was breached even while the book was in press.”

    Meyers (in the book!, p.537): Lincoln and Joyce claim to have produced a fully self-replicating RNA molecule. [...] their claim [...] constitutes little more than a gimmick. True template-directed polymerases can copy any template using free-floating bases from their surroundings. Polymerases do the work of copying a template by sequestering, aligning, and linking bases on a template strand. For a polymerase to function as a true replicase, it would likewise have to do the work of replicating a template, in this case the template provided by itself. The RNA molecules that Lincoln and Joyce devise do not [...]. Instead, they simply joined together via a single bond two presynthesized, specifically sequenced RNA chains to form a longer chain. After the formation of a single phosphate bond, these linked chains resulted in a copy of the original RNA molecule, but only because Lincoln and Joyce first designed the original RNA molecule and then directed the synthesis of two specifically sequenced, complementary partial strands to match it.

  114. Glenda Smith - #25482

    August 12th 2010

    You know, God did not intend to be found out, or discovered, or prooved.  Therefore, science, so-called, will continue to come to dead ends and the one step at a time approach will end in a final step of faith or step into the abyss of time and eternity never knowing what they belived or why.

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