Science as a Way of Knowing

December 30, 2009
Category: Guest Features

Science as a Way of Knowing

"Science and the Sacred" is pleased to feature essays from various guest voices in the science-and-religion dialogue.

All of our regular readers know that BioLogos exists to show that there can be harmony between the Christian faith (even in its evangelical manifestation) and science. If this is true, it Is important that we reflect on the terms themselves from time to time. What is science? What is faith?

On Monday, we posted a review of Stephen Meyer’s book, Signature in the Cell. His thesis is that the traditional science which seeks to understand the origin of cellular information has reached a dead-end. As Meyer sees it, the alternative—cellular information is produced by an intelligence— is firmly grounded in science, not faith. But what is science, and how does it differ from other approaches to obtaining knowledge? To address this question we have asked Dr. Steven Benner, to respond to Signature in the Cell. Fortunately, he had already read the book, so he responded quickly.

Dr. Benner is a Distinguished Fellow in the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution at The Westheimer Institute for Science and Technology, Gainesville FL. He is the author of Life, the Universe, and the Scientific Method . Steven Benner's work at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution seeks to join natural history to the physical sciences to address "big" questions in science (Where did we come from? Are we alone? What is our future in the cosmos?) and in technology, including the management of complex human diseases such as cancer, hypertension, and alcoholism.

The year 1609, the year that Galileo developed the telescope, is often credited as the beginning of an intellectual process that combines observation, analysis, synthesis, theory, modeling, logic and argumentation in a package that we now call "science". Different fields captured this combination at different times in their history, as enabling technologies and concepts appropriate to those fields emerged. Nevertheless, by the end of the last century, "science" had produced models for the structures of living systems to the level of their constituent molecules, structures of molecules to their constituent atoms, and structures of atoms to their constituent particles. These models are today central in the teaching of biology, chemistry, and physics.

Whatever "science" is, one of its characteristics is clear: It is empowering. In this respect, modern science is different from all thought, philosophical, religious, and metaphysical, that occurred in the 36 centuries of human civilization that preceded Galileo. It implies no disrespect to Euclid, Archimedes, Moses, or the builders of the pyramids to observe that models from philosophy, religion, and metaphysics did nothing for the human condition analogous to what modern science has done. The ancients could not, and we can, identify the virus that causes AIDS. Construct a nuclear power plant through the fission of synthetic elements. Extract resources from the Earth's crust using models for the history of our planet.

By the end of the 19th century, as the power of modern science became evident, people attempted to understand what science did that philosophy, religion, and metaphysics had not done. A "brief history of thinking about thought" would mention efforts to construct formal attributes that distinguished "scientific" from "non-scientific" propositions, proposals of testability and falsifiability as examples of these attributes, and the recognition that these attributes do not robustly characterize successful science.

Instead, those who study science, in particular, those who study science from the vantage of themselves being practicing scientists, have come to focus on the relation that successful scientists have with their communities, authorities in their communities, and their own desires to believe. Scientists, of course, are taught by authorities. Further, in their careers, scientists often come to want to believe certain propositions, most often the proposition that their own theories are correct. Scientists, like attorneys or other advocates, can easily cherry-pick data to defend propositions that they want to defend, ignoring data that contradict those cherished propositions.

To be successful, scientists must practice an intellectual discipline that denies them these wants. They must begin by understanding that authorities can be wrong. They also must understand that their desires to believe can corrupt their own abilities to distinguish reality from fiction. Accordingly, they understand that they need an intellectual discipline that might allow the outcome of a scientific process to be, if necessary, something other than what their communities have always believed, or what they personally might want to believe.

Different scientists have conveyed this deep understanding of scientific process with pithy aphorisms. For example, Richard Feynman, the noted Cal Tech physicist, told a convention of high school science teachers in 1966 that "science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." My recent book entitled Life, the Universe, and the Scientific Method shows how different sciences, although different in subject matter and methodologies, all have developed ways to prevent scientists from deceiving themselves. "Science is an intellectual process that embodies a mechanism to prevent scientists from believing what scientists want to believe."

This intellectual discipline allows scientists to uncover reality better than lawyers, politicians, or advertisers. These professionals decide first what they want their conclusions to be ("my client is innocent", "re-elect me", or "buy my product"). They then select data to support their preselected conclusions. They allow themselves any trick to do so, suppressing opposing data, manipulating the media, and destroying opponents through ad hominem attacks. Only a robust system of controlled advocacy, where both sides must argue before a neutral authority (a jury, electorate, or free market), can prevent such an intellectual process from going bad (and often not even then).

Unfortunately, the intellectual discipline needed to support successful science is difficult to teach. It goes against powerful sociological forces, including the need to have authorities in one's field approve grants, grant tenure, or award awards. Accordingly, scientists themselves practice this discipline imperfectly, sometimes very imperfectly. Especially in matters of public policy, one can often see scientists being advocates for their theories with skills equal to the best of attorneys.

When they do, however, scientists lose for themselves the empowerment of modern science. When scientists cease to be more critical of data that support their own hypotheses than data that contradict them, they soon lose the ability to distinguish reality from non-reality.

Nowhere is this intellectual discipline more important than when addressing "big" questions, those that concern subject matter that is not readily available for direct observation. These are not the work-a-day questions that a practitioner must answer to solve a technological problem ("Doc, why am I sick?") or that a parent might field from an inquisitive child ("Mom, what makes the sky blue?").

No, these are questions like: "Do alien extraterrestrials exist?" Or: "How do galaxies form?" Or: "How did life originate?" It implies no disrespect of the ailing patient or the inquisitive child to say that "big" questions are more interesting than the work-a-day questions. Or to suggest that their pursuit is more likely to uncover more fundamental reasons why experts are ignorant. Or to expect the pursuit of "big" questions to be more likely to ignite new beacons to guide our exploration of the cosmos. Including the life it holds.

On this matter, Stephen Meyer recently weighed in with his book, Signature in the Cell. Meyer evidently views his 508 pages (with additional pages of notes) as a "scientific" argument for intelligent design. In addition, Meyer offers autobiographical digressions showing how he learned of many of the conclusions that modern science has delivered. He provides personal stories describing how he learned of the challenges in distinguishing scientific statements from non-scientific statements, how he learned why scientists view living systems as complex, and how he learned about questions current among those who seek to understand the origin of life.

Absent, however, from Meyer's narrative is any evidence that he learned about the intellectual discipline that gave science the power that it needed to arrive at these conclusions. On the contrary, Meyer is an advocate. He knows the final result that he wants (intelligent design). He cherry-picks conclusions provided by modern science to support it (mostly of the "irreducible complexity" type). He reaches his final result with no indication that he considered (or would consider) evidence that might prevent him from believing what he wants to believe.

But it is worse. Not only is Meyer ignorant of the intellectual discipline that gives science its power. He is evidently ignorant of his ignorance. He gives no indication that he knows that by being an advocate, he has denied himself the empowerment that scientific processes might have delivered to him.

In one sense, Meyer cannot be faulted. He is trained in the philosophy of science, a field that does not have many methods to prevent its practitioners from arriving at the results that they want. He is also surrounded in his culture by pseudo-scientific debate. As Feynman observed, "we live in an unscientific age in which almost all the buffeting of communications and television are unscientific. As a result, there is a considerable amount of intellectual tyranny in the name of science."

This observation remains true today. One cant hardly turn on the television without hearing that some "science" or other is "settled", from trans-fats in the food to the role of human carbon dioxide emissions in global climate change. This despite the fact that anyone who declares that a science is "settled" has lost the intellectual discipline needed to be empowered by science.

Why does Meyer write a book that puts his ignorance on such display? He answers this question on page 450. Meyer wants to believe in intelligent design because he wants to avoid an "absence of meaning in modern life". He writes, "the theory of intelligent design … affirm[s] that the ultimate cause of life is personal".

One can certainly be sympathetic with Meyer's suffering as he becomes aware of the Faustian dilemma presented by modern society. One might also object to the cheapening of modern culture, the disaffection of the youth, or the high level of teenage pregnancy. For any of these reasons, one might hope that a belief that life emerged through the hand of an intelligent designer would be mitigating, especially if it is presented as an article of faith as a mandate from a divinity.

And indeed it might. But this is not what scientists should be doing. More to the point, if they started doing so, they would stop producing what we value from science.

And so we turn to another of Meyer's interests: Education. If what experts know today about biology, chemistry, and physics were all that is to be known, then Feynman's aphorism would no longer be correct. We should not only want to believe what we are taught in school by experts, but we should believe. Indeed, we might take a short-cut directly to knowledge by believing without having reason to believe; we should have "faith". Any intellectual discipline that might disrupt our beliefs is no longer needed; indeed, it might lead us astray.

But if there is something left to be learned about the world around us, then it is appropriate to teach the intellectual discipline that is necessary for science to be empowering. Our children will almost certainly need the power of that intellectual discipline to manage the next generation of problems that they will confront. And, as Meyer's book makes clear, there is much to be learned, especially about the origins of life.

Filed Under:
science, religion, origins, intelligent design, Signature in the Cell, DNA, Galileo, Stephen Meyer, Steve Benner, evolution, scientific method, philosophy, Discovery Institute

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  1. John Kwok - #1399

    December 30th 2009

    Bravo, Dr. Benner, well said with regard to Meyer’s ignorance. But I wished you would have emphasized my friend Ken Miller’s point that Intelligent Design is a “science stopper”, which Ken expresses with ample eloquence in his “Only A Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul”.

    And those for your who wonder why Intelligent Design is a “science stopper”, it is simply because Intelligent Design, like other forms of creationism and pseudoscience, lacks the “intellectual discipline” which Benner describes here in this essay with ample grace and eloquence. A distinction which Meyer has yet to learn, and which, alas, he may never learn.

  2. John Kwok - #1402

    December 30th 2009

    @ my prior comment -

    Just saw a few typos, so the final paragraph should read:

    And for those of you who wonder why Intelligent Design is a “science stopper”, it is simply because Intelligent Design, like other forms of creationism and pseudoscience, lacks the “intellectual discipline” which Benner describes here in this essay with ample grace and eloquence. A distinction which Meyer has yet to learn, and which, alas, he may never learn.

    Meyer’s woeful lack of intellectual discpline is readily apparent in the “technical” appendix of “Signature in the Cell”, betraying a gross misunderstanding of what science is and what it can accomplish with respect to biology. Since Meyer is a former geophysicist, he should have known better than to conceive of such an intellectually-flawed piece of “scientific” reasoning as that which exists in the appendix of his book.
    .

  3. beaglelady - #1415

    December 30th 2009

    Dr. Benner,

    This is a thoughtful and comprehensive post and I wish you would also post it on Amazon.com, as a review of Signature in the Cell.

  4. Brian - #1419

    December 30th 2009

    Thanks for the interesting post.  Questions:

    1. Given what he calls a “a considerable amount of intellectual tyranny in the name of science,” I’m wondering if Dr Benner has ever observed such tyranny at work in the field of evolutionary biology?  If so, would he be willing to provide a couple examples of this? 

    2. Dr Benner says:  “anyone who declares that a science is “settled” has lost the intellectual discipline needed to be empowered by science.”  Would this criticism also apply to those who accept the settled “fact” of macroevolution?  If not, why? 

    3. Would his criticisms of advocacy apply to if the ideological tables were reversed?  For example, would his statement <with my edits> also be valid?  “<Dawkins> is an advocate. He knows the final result that he wants (<blind watchmaker evolution>). He cherry-picks conclusions provided by modern science to support it (mostly of the “time, chance and natural law can do it all” type). He reaches his final result with no indication that he considered (or would consider) evidence that might prevent him from believing what he wants to believe.” 

    Thanks,

    B

  5. John Kwok - #1421

    December 30th 2009

    @ Brian -

    If you are referring to the traditional creationist canard that macroevolution is simply the origin of new species and that it is wrong since we don’t see new species evolving in nature, then you are either a fool or delusional or both to bring it up in this context. We have already a very good idea as to how speciation does work, including Natural Selection’s role, in an extensive body of biological scientific literature.

    If, on the other hand, you are referring to macroevolution as evolution above the species level, then you are correct to note that macroevolution is not “settled” as fact, but could be potentially, part of a new, more broadly “expanded”, Extended Modern Synthesis theory of evolution, which some are working on.

    Your substitution of Dawkins’s name for Meyer’s is quite simply absurd (and I make this observation as someone who strongly disagrees with Dawkins’s New Atheist views) and not really worthy of comment, since, as a scientist (or rather, when he was working as a young brilliant evolutionary biologist), Dawkins has never demonstrated the very traits so noted by Dr. Brenner with regards to Meyer’s own commitment to intellectual, especially scientific, honesty.

  6. immunochemist - #1422

    December 30th 2009

    A nice article overall, but if I have one teeny little gripe it’s that in my opinion it’s a mistake to dismiss the rest of the field of philosophy of science along with Meyer.  Like science, philosophy is often badly practised, but it can also involve the discipline you speak of if its practitioners keep their minds free of final conclusions. 

    At its best, philosophy can both provide science’s logical foundations and even suggest whole new lines of enquiry.  Descartes, Galileo, Darwin and T.H. Huxley all successfully made contributions to the philosophy of science on top of their research, and even non-scientists like Aristotle and Popper have arguably made large contributions to our methods for ensuring we can confidently make statements about reality.

  7. Darrel Falk - #1425

    December 30th 2009

    Response to Brian (1419):

    I doubt that Dr. Benner will have time to respond, but your questions are typical of the sort that many would ask, so I want to address them.

    1.  I think there have been times when evolutionary biologists have let their personal philosophies influence their conclusions in the way that Dr. Benner outlines.  Richard Dawkins’ statement about “blind pitiless indifference,” comes quickly to mind.  Evolutionary biologists are not immune to the sorts of forces that Dr. Benner describes.
    2. Dr. Benner was not implying that science never leads to “settlement.”  Quite the opposite. For example, science shows with virtual certainty that HIV causes AIDS.  The fact of macro-evolution has been settled with the same degree of certainty. 
    3.  I know of many scientists, including those who are agnostic about theism, who think that Richard Dawkins and others like him,  take on an advocacy role that extends well beyond the bounds of the scientific data.

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  8. Glen Davidson - #1426

    December 30th 2009

    Good article, but I have to wonder at the apparent dismissal of the philosophy of science as if it were a field that is ignorant of science.  Meyer’s ignorance is not due to a paucity of knowledge about science in the areas of philosophy which deal with it, although it’s true enough that many “philosophers of science” are not well acquainted with their subject.

    Science is to some degree kept honest by philosophy, after all.  Proper thinking is essential in science, and logic is the province first of philosophy.  On the other hand, I do believe that philosophy should be informed by science better than it often is.  Nevertheless, it is no accident that many of the best thinkers in science have been well-informed by philosophy, including Newton, Einstein, and quantum theorists.

    Also, the pseudoscience of society is no excuse for someone who claims the mantle of the philosophy of science.  He was supposed to learn the subject better at Cambridge, and I cannot believe that his teachers are wholly responsible for the dreck in Signature.

    I realize that Dr. Benner, like Dr. Falk, wish not to attack Meyer, but both seem to excuse him too much, at least in my opinion. 

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  9. Glen Davidson - #1427

    December 30th 2009

    Continuing:

    Meyer does make many mistakes, including the (mis)use of obsolete methodologies practiced by Lyell and Darwin.  The fact is that classical science today relies upon discovering specific causes which are considered to be at least plausibly operative in a certain time and place, and matches these to their expected effects, in other words, to their entailed predictions.  Meyer does not bother with this at all, rather he relies upon vague analogies between human activity and an “intelligence” for which he has no evidence (as a primary cause in our universe).  That really is very little different from homiletics or sympathetic magic.  He essentially imported religious thought which has never produced scientific results into science, and dressed it up with a lot of science jargon and flim-flam to cover up such an illegitimate action.

    The philosophy of science, whatever its faults, is not responsible for that.  Neither is the unscientific nature of our society.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  10. Francis Beckwith - #1428

    December 30th 2009

    Although I am critical of ID, I think this is just the sort of essay that does not advance the conversation in a constructive way. Let me explain.

    1. The author accuses Dr. Meyer of “displaying his ignorance.” But that relies on the belief that ignorance is a mental state that one ought not to have. But that’s not a claim of science. It is a normative claim about the intrinsic purposes of persons and the sorts of ends that are appropriate to persons. That is a claim of philosophy, not science.

    2. The author writes: “In one sense, Meyer cannot be faulted. He is trained in the philosophy of science, a field that does not have many methods to prevent its practitioners from arriving at the results that they want.”  The author is assuming that having methodological constraints prevents one from arriving at pre-ordained or desired conclusions.  I’m not sure that’s true. Consider an example the author himself uses, the Galileo controversy.

    (continued in next post)

  11. Francis Beckwith - #1429

    December 30th 2009

    (continued from #1428)

    If anything, Galileo’s use of the telescope inserted into science a tool that was contrary to the methodological constraints of his contemporaries. And the reason why science advanced was precisely because Galileo forced a paradigm shift which opened up new questions that could not be answered under the Ptolemaic paradigm.  In this case, methodological constraints impeded rather than advanced discovery. As many readers of BioLogos know, the Galileo case is much more complicated and fascinating than it is usually depicted in popular culture. My former colleague, Maurice Finocchiaro, in his book, The Galileo Affair (U. of California Press, 1989), provides an account of the theoretical, historical, and sociological issues that really set the stage for the Galileo controversy.

    I will soon be publishing a piece, “How to Be An Anti-Intelligent Design Advocate,” in which I explain my own misgivings about ID while critiquing the New Atheists’ misuse of science and their misunderstandings of the classical theistic view of design in nature, which, ironically, they share with the ID advocates!  The article is set to be published in a few months in the University of St. Thomas Journal of Law & Public Policy

  12. Glen Davidson - #1430

    December 30th 2009

    (as a primary cause in our universe). 

    Sorry, that came out exactly opposite of what I meant.  I meant as “proximal” or “secondary” cause evidence of God’s activity is absent.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  13. Mark - #1437

    December 30th 2009

    Francis Beckwith wrote: “Although I am critical of ID, I think this is just the sort of essay that does not advance the conversation in a constructive way…”

    I completely agree.  In my opinion BioLogos and its champions should be extending an olive branch to all groups and individuals that share its love for Christ. This guy’s article here only widens the chasm between believers and in the process feeds the blood thirsty lions of the new atheist movement a five course meal that will surely be regurgitated and used against Christians who dare to cite the complexity of a cell as one of their reasons for their beliefs.

    Having said that, I FULLY understand—and agree with—Collins’ warnings about “God of the gaps” science (by the way Francis Collins: the new atheist movement has officially adopted that term as their own and they use it quite frequently to degrade Christianity and anything that even vaguely resembles and argument pro design-by-an-intelligent-being”)... CONT’D due to annoying character limitation

  14. Mark - #1438

    December 30th 2009

    CONT’d due to annoying character limitation…

    HOWEVER, while we should be careful not to embrace ideas simply because science has not yet explained them, we should also be mindful of the big pink elephant in the room called “academic freedom” and champion its cause intelligently and with great respect whenever we can

    In other words, the increasingly negative articles about Meyer here are doing NOTHING to help the design by a supreme being movement. All they are doing is criticizing it—and likely in the process discouraging others from positing their own ideas. It’s one thing to have the opposition blast your work, it’s quite another to have your own Christian brothers blast it FOR the opposition!

    There is a fine line between criticism that ENCOURAGES people to rise to a higher level of spiritual and academic excellence, and criticism that belittles them, and I think you guys have crossed it. I don’t like the negative vibe I am picking up here at all. Please stop.

  15. Brian - #1439

    December 30th 2009

    Darrel @1425,

    1. “Evolutionary biologists are not immune to the sorts of forces that Dr. Benner describes.”  Agreed. 

    2. While I appreciate your reply, I don’t see any such qualification in a face-value reading of Dr Brenner’s statement, which is why I asked the question. 

    Having said that, what do you mean when you refer to the “fact of evolution?”  Just a day or two ago on this site there was a lengthy conversation about OOL research, which was introduced and discussed in the broader context of evolution, but which—even for the most optimistic of advocates—cannot in any way be considered settled.

    “Evolution” is quite malleable and holds a huge range of meanings; without a clear definition, it’s easy for folks in these sorts of discussions to talk right past each other.  I’m particularly interested in how your definition might differ from that of say someone like Dawkins or PZ Meyers, and how your definition is informed by your theism, if it is at all. 

    3. “Richard Dawkins and others like him, take on an advocacy role that extends well beyond the bounds of the scientific data.”  Well beyond.  Couldn’t agree more. 

    Thnx,

    B

  16. John Kwok - #1440

    December 30th 2009

    @ Brian -

    Hopefully Darrel’s view of evolution is not shaped by theism. Why? Simply since evolution is science, while theism is faith, and the two should not intertwine. I know religiously devout scientists who recognize the scientific validity of evolution, and, moreover, who, as scientists, consider only scientific issues under consideration, not their religious thought, when they are working as scientists.

    Last June at the World Science Festival here in New York City, I heard two scientists assert that for them, as scientists and religiously devout individuals, science comes first and foremost while they work as scientists, with no consideration whatsoever for their personal religious convictions. Who were they? Brown University cell biologist Ken Miller (a personal friend) and Vatican Astronomer - and planetary scientist and Jesuit brother - Guy Consolmagno. Moreover, Ken has declared that those who belong to faiths hostile to science should discard their memberships in such faiths.

    We don’t inquire about one’s theistic views when discussing astrophysics or structural geology. Why should it be any different for a scientist - religious or otherwise - who recognizes that evolution is a valid scientific fact?

  17. John Kwok - #1441

    December 30th 2009

    Brian -

    Evolution is not malleable; it is quite simply descent through modification via inheritance and variation sas een through the dual prisms of space and time, which will lead ultimately to adaptation.

  18. Darrel Falk - #1442

    December 30th 2009

    Mark 1437.

    I appreciate your concern about extending an olive branch.  However, most non-scientists do not understand the scientific process.  Dr. Benner’s essay is the best I have ever read in explaining how science works.  Why would we want to hold that back?

    We exist to bring harmony between science and faith, but not at the expense of truth.  Read the essay again carefully.  I doubt you’ll ever again read anything which more clearly lays out the process of how the culture of science works.  The sort of knowledge gained through this process does, of course, have boundaries…but that’s another essay.

    Darrel

  19. John Kwok - #1446

    December 30th 2009

    @ Darrel -

    I completely endorse your remarks addressed to Mark (@ 1437). You have no disagreement with me there.

  20. Brian - #1448

    December 30th 2009

    John 1440

    We don’t inquire about one’s theistic views in other scientific disciplines because the advocates of those disciplines (most of them anyway…) understand that science and world view are distinct in a way that many evolutionary biologists do not. 

    I’d like to be able to agree with you, but the fact is that theology is introduced into these discussions all the time—and not from the sources one might expect.  Consider, for example:

  21. Brian - #1449

    December 30th 2009

    Cont’d from above…

    “Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless–a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us.”
    (Biology: Discovering Life by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st ed., D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; (2nd ed.. D.C. Heath and Co., 1994), p. 161; emphases in original.)

    When your friend’s textbook claims that an acceptance of evolution REQUIRES (his language, my emphasis) an acceptance that “there was no divine plan to guide us,” my question is legitimate.

  22. Brian - #1450

    December 30th 2009

    Cont’d again…

    “Simply since evolution is science, while theism is faith, and the two should not intertwine.”

    Couldn’t agree more.  Next time you talk to your friend Dr Miller, make sure and express this notion to him.  I’d be curious to know his response. 

    -B

  23. John Kwok - #1451

    December 30th 2009

    Brian,

    I strongly beg to differ. Darwin was right because he was seeking some rational explanation for common descent without resorting to an Intelligent Designer, which, incidentally, eminent evolutionary geneticist Francisco J. Ayala has noted as Darwin’s recognition that there can be “Design without a Designer” (Incidentally a view which Ken endorses too.). Were you and I may find agreement is recognizing that the New Atheists have gone too far in expressing their religious views and inserting them into their scientific worldview. But otherwise, I should remind you that Darwin was well within his right for making that conclusion.

  24. Brian - #1452

    December 30th 2009

    You confuse the goal—which for many evolutionary biologists is to support what Dawkins has famously called an intellectually fulfilled atheism—with the evidence for that goal, which is severely lacking. 

    Of course Darwin, Miller or anyone else has the right to adopt whatever worldview he wants to.  But to claim that the tools of science somehow demonstrate the absence of a divine plan is complete and utter balderdash. 

    If you wish to claim otherwise, please, please point me to the peer-reviewed articles in the professional literature that demonstrate this. 

    Again, I posed the question for Darrel since he has somehow managed to do what Miller has not:  accept what he believes to be the scientific evidence for evolution while not buying into the whole purposeless-heartless-no-divine-plan philosophy that almost always gets bolted on to it. 

    -b

  25. John Kwok - #1463

    December 30th 2009

    @ Brian -

    Ask any credible scientist and he or she will tell you that the tools of science can’t “demonstrate the absence of a divine plan”. Why? It isn’t science’s job to do this. Instead, for that you need to go to a theologian…. and even a theologian like Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno (who has a Ph. D. in planetary sciences, is the Vatican Astronomer and the curator of the Papal Meteorite collection at Castel Gandalfo, the papal “vacation” residence in Italy) would tell you that, as a scientist he does not entertain any theological considerations. It is only when he serves as a Jesuit Brother free of his scientific duties that he can consider theological issues.

    The approach favored by virtually all scientists, including Brother Consolmagno, is methodological naturalism, or rather, the “scientific method”, which has worked well for scientists for centuries. This approach, however, is at odds with official Discovery Institute policy, as stated in the now infamous Wedge Document, in which Discovery Institute “scientists” like Meyer seek a more expansive definition of science that would include research into the supernatural. Were they to succeed, it would change science completely beyond anyone’s recognition.

  26. Brian - #1469

    December 30th 2009

    John,

    “Ask any credible scientist and he or she will tell you that the tools of science can’t “demonstrate the absence of a divine plan”.

    So, Miller, in your view, is not a credible scientist? 

    For the record, I have no qualms with methodological naturalism whatsoever.  But I’m sorry to say, regardless of whether it’s at odds with DI policy (something I don’t care much about), it is squarely at odds with mainstream evolutionary biology, of which Miller is only one small representative drop very close to the main stream.  Philosophical materialism is what he’s advocating and according to him acceptance of Darwin requires signing on to this particular world view. 

    Read it again; I’m not making this up.

  27. John Kwok - #1471

    December 31st 2009

    Brian -

    No, Ken Miller advocates methodological naturalism, and has stated so in his recent public comments. To say that Ken is an evolutionary biologist, however, is not correct, since he is by training a cell biologist. He is well versed in evolution as demonstrated by both his writing and his frequent lectures and past debates against creationists around the country.

    Let’s not quibble over definitions. The fact remains that Darwin sought some rational explanation for descent with modification via natural law, not via the unseen hand of an Intelligent Designer (though originally he did accept Paley’s thesis as one that was quite valid. It wasn’t until he embarked on HMS Beagle and did substantial field work in South America and the Galapagos Islands did he realize how wrong Paley was.).

    There is nothing I know of in evolutionary biology that should shatter your religious worldview, unless that view is one that is conflict with mainstream science. If that is indeed the case, then I strongly advise you to heed Ken’s advice by changing your faith to one that doesn’t reject science as a means for discerning rational explanations for what we observe in the natural world.

  28. Steve Benner - #1474

    December 31st 2009

    Let me comment to some blogger points; see Chap 1 to 3 of “Life, the Universe…” for more discussion. Even “settled” propositions (e.g.: “HIV causes AIDS”) can be revisited and potentially rejected. However, as science extends its network of logically interconnected propositions, more and more of what we think is true must be rejected to deny any single proposition within that network. Scientists eventually decide to move on (“How Experiments End”, by Peter Galison, a physicist-philosopher-historian whose field I should not have perfunctorily dismissed). Responding analogously to Brian, it is conceivable that the Earth was created 6000 years ago. If it was, however, many well supported propositions within empowering models must be wrong. If New Earth Creationism were correct, Aristotelian logic would require that our view of radioactivity be profoundly wrong; wrong must be theories used to build nuclear power plants, describe stars, and take dental X-rays, inter alia. Given the manifest fact that those theories are empowering in many areas outside of geology, those seeking to support New Earth Creationism have a lot of work to do to overturn the general picture of Earth’s history, and still be consistent with logic.

  29. Mark - #1476

    December 31st 2009

    Steve, I appreciate your comment. Very well stated.

  30. Gregory Arago - #1480

    December 31st 2009

    Hi Folks,

    After reading this article it is not clear to me if the author believes there is *only one* ‘scientific method’ or of there are *many* ‘scientific methods’? For example, he seems to be in contradiction with the title of his book, since here he writes that there are many methodologies, but the title suggests a single entity called ‘the scientific method.’

    Dr. Benner: “My recent book entitled Life, the Universe, and the Scientific Method shows how different sciences, although different in subject matter and methodologies, all have developed ways to prevent scientists from deceiving themselves.”

    Why not instead title the book, “Life, the Universe and Scientific Methods”?

    He also seems to hold a negative view of philosophy of science (PoS), as discussed in other comments, for ‘unscientific’ reasons. That is fine by me, i.e. to hold a negative view of PoS, as long as one realizes why they hold such a view. PoS has exposed the myth that not only the triad of ‘physics, chemistry and biology’ are ‘sciences’, which Benner acknowledges, but adds such things as cognitive sciences, ecology, ethology, behavioral genetics, and perhaps even evolutionary psychology, which Benner doesn’t discuss.

  31. Gregory Arago - #1481

    December 31st 2009

    One’s view of ‘a dialogue between science and religion’ stated in such a way (i.e. dualistically) does not serve to welcome the participation of philosophy and philosophers, which, e.g., the Dutch reformed Christian perspective does, i.e. this tradition discusses sciences, philosophies *and* religion/faith/theology/worldviews seeking a holistic view.

    Benner seems to oppose PoS rather than accept that PoSs may have some knowledge to contribute that he does not possess. It may even be important knowledge to share, though it doesn’t necessarily help with the ‘practice of doing sciences’ other than to aid scientists with their self-understanding.

    When Darrell Falk writes, “I doubt you’ll ever again read anything which more clearly lays out the process of how the culture of science works,” there is nothing ‘scientific’ in this statement. But that doesn’t make any less important his views and opinions about philosophy of science and culture.

    Meyer and Benner are both ‘advocates’; the main issue is what they are respectively advocating.

    Just to end with a question (since to me ‘science’ is about asking questions and seeking answers): If ‘science’ is about ‘reality’, then what are philosophy and religion about?

  32. Gregory Arago - #1485

    December 31st 2009

    p.s. is Dr. Benner suggesting that one can obtain a PhD degree in History and Philosophy of Science from Cambridge University, as Meyer did, while lacking in ‘intellectual discipline’?

  33. Brian - #1489

    December 31st 2009

    Steve,
    Thanks, but I don’t even know how to respond.  To reply to me with a swipe at young earth creationism—a position I do not support and no one in the discussion even mentioned—is a complete non-sequitur. 
    -b

  34. Michael Thompson - #1493

    December 31st 2009

    Just to end with a question (since to me ‘science’ is about asking questions and seeking answers): If ‘science’ is about ‘reality’, then what are philosophy and religion about?
    - Gregory Arago

    Good question! my guess is he means Objective reality, that which has, or may be in the future, verifyable by science, while philosphical and theological are subjective reality, though real in how they affect us in powerful ways, can never be proven true with science.

    MT

  35. Mike Gene - #1496

    December 31st 2009

    Dr. Benner,

    Very nice essay.  I’m curious as to how you would classify your own essay.  You are attempting to convey knowledge about the world (the practice of science is a human behavior that is part of our world).  Would you say that in writing your essay for the internet, you were doing science?  Is it possible the essay contains some element of advocacy?

    I would also point out that religious faith is empowering.  Many Christians can testify to the fact that their faith may not only embolden their sense of meaning and purpose in life, but also sustains them through many of their darkest moments in life.  Perhaps you mean “empowerment” more in the sense of manipulation?

  36. beaglelady - #1507

    December 31st 2009

    Brian said (to John Kwok):

    When your friend’s textbook claims that an acceptance of evolution REQUIRES (his language, my emphasis) an acceptance that “there was no divine plan to guide us,” my question is legitimate.


    I questioned Dr. Ken Miller via email about this quote.  He replied with the following:

      The quote is genuine – but it’s still a case of mining a few sentences out of their context in the narrative.

      It comes from page 152 of “Biology: Discovering Life.”  This was a college textbook published nearly 20 years ago (it appeared in 1990) by the DC Heath Co.

      I’m attaching a scan of the complete page, so you can see the full context in which it was written.

      As you will see, we did NOT mean to imply that there is “no divine plan to guide us,” which would be a conclusion outside of science.  Rather, we sought to explain some of the cultural shock that appeared when The Origin was published – and also to affirm, as Darwin did, that evolution is not necessarily a threat to faith.

  37. beaglelady - #1508

    December 31st 2009

    (Continuing…)

    Dr. Miller is correct.  At the end of the section he includes a quote from Darwin,
    “I see no good reason why the views given in this volume [Origin Of Species] should shock the religious feelings of anyone.

    Miller concludes with the following (emphasis added):
    Like religious scientists of many faiths today, he found no less wonder in a god that directed the laws of nature than in one that circumvented them.

    And Miller is famously a devout Roman Catholic Christian, as everyone knows (or should know).

  38. beaglelady - #1509

    December 31st 2009

    To make it clearer, I would like to say,

    Miller concludes the section in his textbook with the following (emphasis added):

    Like religious scientists of many faiths today, he found no less wonder in a god that directed the laws of nature than in one that circumvented them.

  39. John Kwok - #1513

    December 31st 2009

    beaglelady,

    Thanks for contacting Ken, and having him confirm what I have said about him.

  40. beaglelady - #1514

    December 31st 2009

    John,

    You are most welcome.  I’ve never heard of Ken Miller being quote-mined before, but I guess there’s a first time for everything.

  41. beaglelady - #1517

    December 31st 2009

    Also,  I find that I am no longer allowed to post on the original “SIg in the Cell” post here, which is frustrating.

  42. John Kwok - #1519

    December 31st 2009

    beaglelady,

    Nor can I post there either, and I had been blocked from posting here for a major portion of the day.

    As for Ken, he’s been the frequent “victim” of quote mining from creationists of all stripes, including Intelligent Design advocates and from some militant New Atheists who think he is putting his religious faith ahead of his science (An observation which is patently false, since he has said more than once that whenever he does science, it, not religion, occupies his thought. Moreover, he believes that those who belong to faiths hostile to science should renounce their memberships in such faiths. Hard to describe him as someone who would place his religious views ahead of his scientific ones, unlike, for example, Stephen Meyer and Meyer’s “esteemed” Discovery Institute colleagues.).

    Sincerely yours,

    John

  43. Steve Benner - #1527

    January 1st 2010

    I use the word “empowering” in an effort to find descriptions that can be “universally agreed upon”. So far, formalisms that distinguish “science” from “non-science” have not been universally agreed upon. Observers of a hydrogen bomb or life-saving medicine need not agree on a formal definition of “knowledge”. But it is hard to conceive of humans who would not say “Yup, whoever built that bomb must know something about the universe that I do not”, even if we are running for our lives as we were saying it. ). Yes, it is easier to use “manipulation” (#1496) to illustrate the concept of “universally agreed” empowerment, something that we expect “knowledge” to confer.  One cannot obtain similar common consent when someone speaks of individual empowerment (#1496). People find science distinctive (and want to apply the term “scientific” to their own activities) because it generates manipulative power that is transparent to everyone. Analogous to #1496’s comment that religion is personally empowering would be statements (such that Carl Sagan might make) that science gives us a personal sense of bewonderment, something that is more like a religious sentiment.

  44. Steve Benner - #1528

    January 1st 2010

    Also: Do I suggest “one can obtain a PhD…lacking ‘intellectual discipline’” (#1481)? No, but one can obtain that degree without an empowering intellectual discipline. Do I think that more than one “scientific method” exists (#1480)? Yes; “Life the Universe” discusses this. I used New Earth creationism as an example, not a “swipe” (#1489). The question: “Is ‘macroevolution’ likely to be true” (#1419) cannot be managed in 1250 characters because ‘macroevolution’ embodies many different propositions (see #1421); I did not know which #1419 had in mind. For example, what must be abandoned to deny common descent? I would begin with the convergence of geological, anatomical, and paleontological records and DNA sequences. With an ID model, this convergence would be part of the design. Not impossible, but interesting to theology, as it would tell us something about the designer (a “deceptive God” or an Arthur C. Clarke alien). In this model, the designer placed evidence within his/her creation that would imply common descent, evidence that would become discernable only after humankind had technology to sequence DNA. This Designer evidently wanted to deceive, but only advanced humans, not the humans of the Bible.

  45. John Kwok - #1531

    January 1st 2010

    Steve Brenner -

    Thanks for your recent comments and my best wishes to you for the new year. I might add that, in reply to #1419, there exists a growing body of biological scientific literature pointing to recent and ongoing instances of speciation of which one of the more notable examples is the discovery by British biologists of a new species of mosquito found only within London’s Underground subway system (This was published in a British science journal around 2000 or 2001, but I don’t have the reference handy.). Am mentioning this merely to note that speciation is not rare or elusive or undetectable; it is as natural a process as planetary motion, the origin and movement of hurricanes and other severe storms, or the advance (or retreat) of glaciers.

  46. Gregory Arago - #1533

    January 1st 2010

    There will never be “descriptions that can be “universally agreed upon”.” This is a human-social ‘law’ of communication and not something that a study of physical things (e.g. molecules) can ascertain.

    Steve wrote: “Do I think that more than one “scientific method” exists (#1480)? Yes.” (#1528)

    Then why does the title of your book suggest that only a *single* entity called ‘the scientific method’ exists?

    I find the same lack of precision (and dire need for more PoS) in your claim that S. Meyer is not credible, empowered or intellectually disciplined. Cambridge University says he is intellectually disciplined, empowered and credible, especially on the ‘origins of life’ conversation. I don’t know who you are to say otherwise.

  47. John Kwok - #1539

    January 1st 2010

    @ Gregory Arago -

    Unlike, for example, genuine philosophers of science such as Philip Kitcher or Robert Pennock, Meyer’s “scholarship” has consisted almost primarily of partisan advocacy on behalf of Intelligent Design creationism.  If one were to glance objectively at the curriculum vitae of Kitcher’s, Pennock’s and Meyer’s, then any objective reader would recognize instantly that Meyer is not a credible philosopher or historian of science (which, I do acknowledge, is his specialty, having earned a Ph. D. degree in the history of science), especially when, in his own bibliography for “Signature in the Cell”, virtually every publication of his has been in books and journals that are aligned with Fundamentalist Protestant “Christian” religious thought, not within credible journals devoted to the philosophy and/or history of science.

    It is for this reason that, I believe, Dr. Benner thinks Meyer is “not credible, empowered or intellectually disciplined”. It may be a harsh judgement expressed diplomatically by Benner, but it is a sound judgement as well, and one which I think even Darrel Falk and Karl Giberson would concur with.

  48. Mike Gene - #1547

    January 1st 2010

    Dr Benner,

    Thank you for your reply about the issue of empowerment.  I was just letting you know it was possible for some to read the essay and interpret you to be saying that science alone imparts empowerment.  But that is not the case. Your point about finding descriptions that can be “universally agreed upon” is a good one.  Yes, no rational person can deny the manipulative empowerment of science. 

    Yet I also wonder if there really is a clear-cut distinction between science and advocacy.  It would seem to me your portrayal of science is rather idealistic and it comes across as cheer-leading.  I’m thinking of this because of your emphasis on empowerment, as it brings to mind Goethe’s poem, The Sorcerer’s Apprentice.  We know that science has brought both good and bad into the world, yet, as if you were cherry picking, you chose to focus only on the good. 

    As the comic book says, with great power comes great responsibility.  What sustains that sense of responsibility?

  49. John Kwok - #1549

    January 1st 2010

    Mike Gene -

    What you are addressing are issues pertaining to the sociology of science, and I might suggest reading Fred Grinnell’s “Everyday Practice of Science”, in which he admits that science may not always follow strictly the scientific method and that some science does involve advocacy. These are valid points and I think Grinnell’s comments are most persuasive, merely to illustrate how science can stray from the ideals implicit in its adoption of methodological naturalism (That it can stray should surprise no one since science is a human endeavor, and humans are not infallible.). However, there is a substantial degree of difference between what Grinnell recognizes as bona fide science advocacy and the kind practiced daily by Stephen Meyer and his fellow Discovery Institute mendacious intellectual pornographers (I use this term because their activities are truly mendacious strategies adopted by totalitarian dictatorship propagandists.).

  50. John Kwok - #1550

    January 1st 2010

    Miike Gene (continued) -

    BTW I know you are an Intelligent Design advocate, but you seem to come across as more intelligent than your peers, so I’m not going to hurl insults at you…. at least not yet.

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

    P. S. Fred Grinnell has dealt with Meyer in the past, and is not by any means, a fan of Intelligent Design.

  51. Mike Gene - #1553

    January 2nd 2010

    Hi John,

    I am an “ID advocate” in the sense that I like to explore the possibility that evolution may have been influenced by design.  But don’t worry, as I recognize my approach does not rise to the level of science and have made this clear.  In fact, many in the ID movement are not exactly pleased with my long-stated position that ID is not science.  It is a non-negotiable point for them.

    Anyway, thanks for the recommendation of Grinnell’s book.  I do think a sociology of science approach helps us better understand science than a philosophy of science approach.  But to be clear, I am not somehow trying to defend the advocacy of the ID movement with some “everyone does it” argument.

  52. John Kwok - #1554

    January 2nd 2010

    Hi Mike,

    Okay, thanks for your comment, especially recognizing that Intelligent Design isn’t scientific (Though in deferrence to philosopher of science Philip Kitcher, it may have been once, as I noted in another blog entry comment, from the 16th through 18th Centuries.).  If I may offer this bit of advice, it might serve you well to remind others of this, in the event someone else mistakes you as yet another ID advocate.

    As for evolution being “influenced” by design, you ought to consider what both evolutionary geneticist Francisco J. Ayala and cell biologist Kenneth R. Miller have said, that Darwin recognized the possibility of “Design without a Designer”, in which designed occurred, as an emergent property, via natural law (I think Ken does a fine job explaining this in his “Only A Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul”.).

    Sincerely yours,

    John

  53. Mike Gene - #1558

    January 2nd 2010

    Hi John,

    Thanks for the advice.  And thanks for the recommendation of Miller’s book.  I did enjoy his first one and actually built on some of his points.  So I’ll add his second book to my “to read” list. But I am not here to advocate for my own views and will try to restrict my focus to the arguments proposed in the blog entries.

  54. John Kwok - #1570

    January 2nd 2010

    Mike,

    You’re welcome. I forgot to mention Ayala’s book,  “Darwin’s Gift to Science and Religion”, which emphasizes the fact that Darwin discovered that there could be “Design without a Designer”.

    While I would prefer not to advocate my views, I have felt compelled to in light of those who think Stephen Meyer and his Discovery Institute colleague merit more sympathetic treatment since they are, like many posting here, Christians too (I wonder if they would receive such treatment if they were identified clearly as members of some kind of Islamic Fascist organization such as Al Qaeda or the Taliban, for example. Regrettably, as Paul Gross and Barbara Forrest, among others, have demonstrated, especially in their “Creationism’s Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design”, one can conclude that Meyer and his Discovery Institute colleagues are really crypto-Fascist “Christians” who see Intelligent Design as an important means for intellectual, cultural and poltiical subversion.).

    Sincerely,

    John

  55. John Kwok - #1573

    January 2nd 2010

    Just in, even “lifeless” prions are capable of evolution:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8435320.stm

    I strongly doubt Meyer can address this.

  56. David Opderbeck - #1647

    January 4th 2010

    I’m sorry I’m late to this party, but I had to weigh in on one point:  Dr. Brenner unfortunately misrepresents here what lawyers do in what seems to be an effort to establish the epistemic superiority of “science” to any other way of knowing.  As my own essays here on Biologos suggest, I too am critical of the ID movement for a variety of reasons.  One of my primary reasons for balking at ID, however, is theological, which Dr. Brenner apparently would take to mean “trivial.” 

    We can do much better than this.  Check out Alister McGrath’s work on critical realism.  “Science” isn’t the only way of knowing, nor is it the “best” way of knowing.  It’s a set of tools and methods that are uniquely appropriate to one aspect of reality.  We “know” much more than what “science” tells us and we gain this knowledge through a variety of tools, including theology and philosophy.  There is harmony between faith and science, but there is no possibility of harmony between faith and positivism.

  57. David Opderbeck - #1649

    January 4th 2010

    Oh yeah:  lawyers, at least good lawyers, don’t just reason to whatever result the client wants.  It doesn’t work that way, except maybe on TV.  We lawyers have to deal with facts that simply are what they are and an often enormous body of prior case law and legislative rules.  We advise our clients about likely outcomes and then work within the constraints of the facts, the existing law, and our ethical rules to present the best possible arguments leading to a result that is hopefully the best that can be obtained for the client under all the circumstances. 

    In many ways, this practice of “legal science” isn’t all that different from what natural scientists do when they form theories about reality.  Based on everything you know, you formulate the best possible theory about what reality is like.  If you’re a good natural scientist, however, you don’t confuse your theory with ultimate reality.  By definition, all scientific theories are defeasible if subsequent observations prove contrary.

  58. Charlie - #1656

    January 4th 2010

    To those pro-religious, anti-intelligent design people, how is religion any different that ID with respect to one’s biased conclusions about the big questions?

  59. John Kwok - #1657

    January 4th 2010

    David,

    Thanks for your excellent comparisons between what really good lawyers and really good scientists do. Your comments needed to be said and I greatly appreciate them.

    Speaking of lawyers, you may find this fascinating as an example of the Discovery Institute’s commitment to free speech and respecting property rights of others:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-cmHJthuq8

    I know others here have found my comments critical of Stephen Meyer and his Discovery institute colleagues most objectionable, but that link I’ve just provided merely underscores what I have been saying regarding the Discovery institute’s crypto-Fascist orientation.

    Sincerely yours,

    John

  60. Charlie - #1660

    January 4th 2010

    Science looks at evidence and from it, theories are either strengthened or weakened, leading to our scientific definitions of truth.  Science is unbiased in that it openly accepts change to “truth” if new evidence arises.  Also, science makes us humans humbly accept there is much we do not understand.  Because of the immense amount we do not understand, religion enters the lives of many to give them a satisfactory answer.  Personal interpretations are made in religion either to explain the unexplained or to support an ethical way of living.  I think religion is good for many in the sense that it develops great morals, however does everyone agree that religion explaining the unexplained is unscientific?  I feel the answers religion provides are only hypotheses lacking data.  From what I understand, Biologos interprets the Bible to support today’s scientific truths, but can anyone think of how one can determine “truth” without evidence?  Thanks.

  61. Gregory Arago - #1672

    January 4th 2010

    Well said in #1647, especially paragraph 2 David Opderbeck!

  62. John Kwok - #1683

    January 4th 2010

    Back in February philosopher Robert Pennock stated som important, quite valid, comments regarding mendacity displayed by the Discovery Institute and other creationists:

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/room-for-debate/2009/02/18/creation-of-christian-soldiers-a-chilling-sidelight-of-darwin-bashing.html

    He concluded his commentary with these remarks, which I endorse fully:


    “As I wrote in a recent op-ed about Expelled and the ID culture wars, it is hard to know how to respond in a civil manner to such ignorant extremism. Let me go further here: Such views (and I do here mean views, not people) do not deserve a civil response. They deserve more than disapproval and ridicule. They deserve the moral outrage of all who are friends of reason and truth.”

    “Darwin shares his birthday with Abraham Lincoln, and the famous conclusion of Lincoln’s first Inaugural Address is relevant to the culture war that creationists and other extremists would inject into our children’s science classes. Let us forthrightly reject those false and polarizing views and hope that the better angels of our nature will eventually prevail and bring this war to an end.”

    I hope there are others here at BioLogos who agree.

  63. Brian - #1719

    January 5th 2010

    Hello Charlie @ 1660,

    I myself became—and remain—a theist primarily _because_ of the evidence, of which there are many important lines.  Probably most important to me is the fact that the xian world view, IMO, explains the way people are (and the way I am) better than any other.  But science enters into it too.  Lately, I have found looking at “fine tuning” at the cosmological level to be both reinforcing and consistent with theism.  If you want to we can discuss more, but for now, Just Six Numbers by Rees is good on this. 

    You ask, “can anyone think of how one can determine “truth” without evidence?”  I don’t believe anyone can—not me, at least.  And this is why I’m a xian. 

    Recommendation:  Tim Keller, a writer I like quite a bit, was featured here several days ago.  Pick up his book; it’s a great read. 
    http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/0525950494/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262700475&sr=8-5

  64. Mike Gene - #1732

    January 5th 2010

    David made some excellent points.  Let me add a couple of more thoughts. Dr. Benner writes, “This intellectual discipline allows scientists to uncover reality better than lawyers, politicians, or advertisers.” 

    But in a sense, this is comparing apples and oranges.  If science is the best way to ‘uncover reality,’ then why hasn’t any country replaced courtrooms and lawyers/judges with labs and scientists?  Because it can’t be done.  Science excels only as a function of its limitations.

    There is a fundamental difference between scientists and lawyers/politicians/advertisers.  The latter group must make choices and decisions based on the information at hand.  Scientists have the option of saying “we don’t know, further research is needed.”  In fact, this option is essential to science.  Yet the need to make decisions, here and now, is essential to everyday life.

  65. Gregory Arago - #1747

    January 5th 2010

    If you’ll forgive the repeat, I write it for Dr. Steven Benner’s education in philosophy of science, a field that he seems to dismiss condescendingly (though without a convincing reason).

    Steven wrote: “Do I think that more than one “scientific method” exists (#1480)? Yes.” (#1528)

    Gregory Arago: “Then why does the title of your book suggest that only a *single* entity called ‘the scientific method’ exists?”

    It would help for Benner’s future communicative endeavo(u)rs to answer to this question directly and not to avoid it as a natural scientist speaking with a philosopher often does.

    Among the first two questions asked in the field of ‘science studies’ are: Which science? and Whose science? One simply must admit there are *sciences* (plural) and *scientific methods* (plural).

    The notion that there is ONE ‘scientific method’ is badly out of date. As it seems to me, so is the title of Benner’s book (which by the way doesn’t mean that there aren’t clever and important insights therein!). I would hope that Dr. Benner would take this into consideration in future writings.

    Respectfully,
    Gregory

  66. John Blackburn - #1755

    January 5th 2010

    This man would do well to make his arguments genuine.

  67. Charlie - #1821

    January 6th 2010

    To Brian (responding to #1719)

    You stated that you found that “looking at “fine tuning” at the cosmological level to be both reinforcing and consistent with theism.”  Can you please explain how this reinforces theism.  Are you 100% certain that if any of the knobs were tweaked, life (although most it would most certainly be extremely different life) would still not arise?  I feel making a claim that life could only arise with the knobs set the way they are is making a bold conclusion that I feel us humans must humbly accept that we are just too ignorant to make.  I see a close connection between the fine tuning argument and irreducible complexity.  Just because we don’t know something, doesn’t mean that is evidence for theism.

  68. Brian - #1847

    January 6th 2010

    Charlie,

    Thanks for the reply. 

    First, a reference (all quotations come from this piece in Discover.  I like it both because it is broadly representative of recent research, and uncontroversially in the mainstream):  http://discovermagazine.com/2008/dec/10-sciences-alternative-to-an-intelligent-creator

    Am I 100% certain? 
    No.  Most of the big questions of life cannot be reduced to such black and white terms, IMO.  I put this sort of evidence in the “beyond a reasonable doubt”, not “beyond an absolute doubt” category. 

    If you were to rephrase your question to “Are you certain beyond a reasonable doubt that if any of the knobs were tweaked, life as we know it would not be possible,” the answer provided by the experts is a decisive yes.  Consider:  “Tweak the laws of physics in just about any way and—in this universe, anyway—life as we know it would not exist…. Atoms consist of protons, neutrons, and electrons. If those protons were just 0.2 percent more massive than they actually are, they would be unstable and would decay into simpler particles. Atoms wouldn’t exist; neither would we….”  This is but one of several examples of observed fact from the reference I could have provided.

  69. Brian - #1848

    January 6th 2010

    —2—

    “Can you please explain how this reinforces theism”
    Theism “predicts” if you will, not only that God exists, but also that he is fantastically powerful, and damn smart.  An engineered universe like the one we live in is exactly what I would expect to see as the creative output of such a God.  Discover, on the other hand, describes fine-tuning as a “‘problem’—the baffling observation that the laws of the universe seem custom-tailored to favor the emergence of life.”  For the naturalist, fine tuning is a problem and baffling specifically because it is disconfirming.  This data is not AT ALL what was expected, working from the assumption that unguided naturalism was at the helm. 

    “Just because we don’t know something, doesn’t mean that is evidence for theism.”
    I agree.  But my conclusions are based on what we DO know; fine tuning is a well-established fact. It is the naturalists in this case who propose a what-we-don’t-know desperate means to insulate their world view from uncomfortable data.  Indeed, one even says, “If you don’t want God, you better have a multiverse.”  How ironic is it that when the data pushes him into a corner, it is the naturalist who resorts to a religious explanation?

  70. Brian - #1849

    January 6th 2010

    —3—

    A final quotation: 
    “Life, it seems, is not an incidental component of the universe, burped up out of a random chemical brew on a lonely planet to endure for a few fleeting ticks of the cosmic clock. In some strange sense, it appears that we are not adapted to the universe; the universe is adapted to us.”  Wow.

    IMO, this line of evidence is huge and rests squarely in the theist’s column.  Thanks for asking.

  71. Charlie - #1900

    January 7th 2010

    Brian-
    You explained what could not exist if you tweaked physics (atoms and life as we know it).  Do you know what WOULD exist if you tweaked physics?  The truthful answer is no, none of us do because we can’t humanly tweak it.  You said atoms would be reduced to simple particles but making such a claim is impossible because we cannot determine what an altered physical world would be.  So why do you feel it is reasonable to assume that life (I’m defining life in scientific terms, not human life) could not arise with the different physical law?  The knobs had to be set somewhere correct?  And life arose with those knobs set where they are.  You make the claim that knobs set differently would not allow life - true for life as we know it, but it’s a very risky conclusion for life simply meaning a metabolic, replicating, isolated system.  Also, I don’t see how set physical laws disprove the absence of a God.

    Also, what is the “uncomfortable data” you quoted?

    Last, how was your final quote evidence?  Why does it appear “that we are not adapted to the universe (but that) the universe is adapted to us”?  Just because someone said it doesn’t make it evidence.

  72. Brian - #1950

    January 7th 2010

    Charlie,

    “You said atoms would be reduced to simple particles…” 
    Actually, I quoted Discover, who reported the testimony of experts in the field.  If you disagree, your dispute is not with me, but with the facts as reported by the scientists. 

    “Do you know what WOULD exist…” 
    Of course not; no one does.

  73. Brian - #1951

    January 7th 2010

    —2—

    “why do you feel it is reasonable to assume that life…could not arise with the different physical law?”
    Even though I made no such assumption, is this really the parcel of ground you want to defend?  I will easily grant that it is _concievable_ that life could arise with a different set of physical laws, if you agree that any such conception is speculation without evidence.

    “I don’t see how set physical laws disprove the absence of a God.” 
    Good, because I don’t think it does either—I just think it makes it highly unlikely.  If you read the article again, you’ll note that some of naturalism’s most ardent supporters do too:  otherwise hard-boiled physicists who feel that they have no choice but to retreat to metaphysics in an attempt to explain the data: an untestable, unfalsifiable, theory of multiverses, which is preferred apparently only because it is naturalistic. 

    Since both the theist and naturalist end up on metaphysical ground, I prefer the perspective which to me is more internally consistent:  detailed specification implies—doesn’t prove, but implies—a specifier.  I don’t have nearly enough faith to accept the multiverse alternative. 

    -b

  74. Steve Benner - #1962

    January 7th 2010

    Mr. Gene (#1547) asked if my piece was advocacy, “idealistic” and “cheerleading”. I intended it to be informative, as I was asked by the blog organizer to explain what scientists do to make “scientific” statements worthy of the special respect that they have in modern culture. That aside, scientists are human and are often advocates, especially of their own theories. When they become advocates, however, scientists lose for themselves the intellectual discipline that empowers them. Whether different ways of “knowing” and “kinds” of knowledge exist (Mr. Opderbeck #1647) is the epistemological issue at hand. I have argued (this is advocacy, not science) that only those who credit most the data that contradicts their desired conclusions, and credit least the data that confirm them, can benefit from the empowerment that modern science delivers. Philosophy has been around a lot longer without this disciplined approach to data, but did not build an atomic bomb (my using this example should lay to rest the complaint #1547 that I was cherry picking only “the good” from science). Dr. Meyer’s book suggests that he lacks the intellectual discipline of which I speak; perhaps he has other kinds of intellectual discipline (#1747).

  75. Brian - #1978

    January 8th 2010

    Steve Benner says: 
    “When they become advocates, however, scientists lose for themselves the intellectual discipline that empowers them.”

    I agree.  Given this, would you say that the advocacy of a Dawkins or a Coyne, for example, has caused them to lose for themselves the intellectual discipline that empowers them, or does this sort of statement apply only to non-orthodox types like Meyer? 

    Thanks for your contiributions.

  76. Charlie - #1984

    January 8th 2010

    Brian,

    Why can you say the absence of a God is unlikely?  We just discussed how there is no evidence proving or disproving God so how can it be unlikely?

  77. Brian - #2001

    January 8th 2010

    Charlie,
    I didn’t claim there wasn’t evidence.  I actually think the evidence from fine tuning is quite convincing.  I merely said that this evidence allows me to render a verdict which is beyond a reasonable doubt, not one which is 100% certain. Because this and other lines of evidence make God’s existence tenable—and yes, likely—I made a decision to become a theist.

  78. Charlie - #2094

    January 9th 2010

    Brian,

    What is the evidence?  I know there are set constants in physics, but is that your evidence?  If it is, how does that support the existence of God?

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