A “Historical” Adam?

April 15, 2010
Category: Guest Features

A “Historical” Adam?

"Science and the Sacred" is pleased to feature essays from various guest voices in the science-and-religion dialogue. Today's entry was written by David Opderbeck. David Opderbeck is a professor of law at Seton Hall University School of Law and serves in the school's Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology. His blog Through a Glass Darkly addresses issues in theology and the science and religion dialogue.

Here on the “Science and the Sacred” blog, there has recently been a spirited discussion resulting from various posts and videos on the nature of “Adam.” I’m grateful that a forum for such open discussion exists. I find many aspects of this discussion immensely helpful. Nevertheless, I have to admit that I’m not fully satisfied. I’m prepared to accept the basic facts of human evolution. I'm also prepared to consider generously the views of the many fine theologians and scholars writing here on BioLogos concerning a non-"literal" Adam. However, I’m not prepared to suggest that these facts elide any possibility of a “historical” Adam.

My concerns are theological. Significant parts of the Christian Tradition have always taught that human beings are incapable of not sinning; that this incapability is a form of corruption and not an inherent human weakness that can be overcome by merely human effort; and that this corruption was passed on organically from Adam to his descendants. If we elide any historical Adam and any “real” mechanism for the transmission of original sin, this raises some important difficulties for many Christians. In the recent past, this move has often led to Pelagian views of human nature, and then to merely existentialist views of Christian faith that cease to be meaningfully “Christian.” In addition, whatever approach one takes to the question of Biblical "inerrancy," it seems to many Christians, including myself, that the Biblical narrative is difficult to hold together without a "real" primal event of sin by humanity's progenitors.

My own theological presuppositions, then, compel me to consider ways in which the best scientific evidence can be accepted without giving up entirely on a "historical" Adam. So how can a historical Adam be reconciled with human evolution?

The biggest problem here, in my view, is the population genetics data described in in a post by Dennis Venema and Darrel Falk. There is compelling evidence that current human genetic diversity cannot have derived from only one breeding pair. We can construct any variety of scenarios under which God "selected" some hominid pair to be "Adam and Eve," but none of those scenarios answer this population genetics data. "Adam and Eve" would have had many brothers, sisters, cousins, and so on, who also would have passed some of their genes on to us.

I've puzzled over this question for a long time, and here is an approach I believe might be fruitful: the distinction between "genetics" and "genealogy." The Biblical writers and editors did not know anything about "genetics." When Paul says in Romans 5:12 that "sin entered the world through one man," he is not commenting on the modern science of genetics. He is referring to a genealogical line in the context of ancient uses of genealogies.

A good comparison here is the Biblical notion of Abraham as the father of the Jewish people. Hebrews 11:12 says that “from this one man [Abraham], and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore” (emphasis added). (In fact, the word man in the translation does not appear in the Greek. Read literally, the texts says that from "one ... came descendants....")

I suspect that most of us would not be surprised to learn that, in the generations between Abraham and the first century, the Jewish gene pool would have become significantly diluted. Even if some of Abraham’s genes remained in the first century Jewish gene pool, because of intermarriage, there would have been a great deal of genetic diversity from people outside of Abraham’s line, including Canaanites, Moabites, and others.

Indeed, the Bible itself tells us that the Israelites repeatedly intermarried with surrounding people, often to their great detriment, as when King Solomon catered to the idol-worship of his foreign wives (see 1 Kings 11:1-6). Non-Jews—people who according to scripture itself were not physical heirs of Abraham—were considered by the writer of the Gospel of Matthew to be part of the Abrahamic line of redemption, to the point of being included in the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew’s Gospel: Tamar and Rahab, both Canaanite women, and Ruth, a Moabite woman. And Rahab is even mentioned again in the “Hebrews 11 Hall of Fame” (Hebrews 11:31)?

So how can the writer of Hebrews suggest that the Jews came from “one" (or "one man") when in the same passage he mentions a Canaanite woman who was not a direct descendant of Abraham? What about the progenitors of the Canaanite and Moabite family lines of Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and of many other non-Jews who married into Abraham’s line over the centuries?

I confess I’m not a professional Biblical scholar, but from my study of scripture and its context, it seems to me that genealogy, in the ancient context, is at heart about the representative responsibility of the progenitor and of other key figures in the genealogical line. It is of course true that ancient genealogy also involves physical descent, but not every member of the progenitor’s line necessarily would have to be a direct physical descendant of the progenitor alone.

It seems to me potentially very significant for our conversation about Adam that people who were not physically descended from Abraham were included in the Biblical genealogy of redemption that derives from “one man,” Abraham. They were grafted into the Abrahamic line by marriage. Is it likewise possible that the universal genealogical line of “Adam” could include the in-grafting of physical lines of descent outside of Adam’s direct line, with “Adam” still remaining the progenitor with representative responsibility for the resulting mass of humanity?

Once again, the Bible itself seems to have no problem with this possibility. The story of the mark of Cain seems to assume that Adam and Eve were not the only humans alive in their times. (See Gen. 4:15). Apparently, Cain’s descendants intermarried with the people Cain eventually encountered. The descendants of Cain’s descendants would all have been descendants of Adam, but they also would have acquired genetic material from other people, just as Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and others infused non-Abrahamic genetic material into the Abrahamic line.

What I’m suggesting is scientifically plausible. There is no problem at all in suggesting that every person alive today physically can trace his or her lines of descent—his or her “family tree”—to encompass a single pair in the recent or distant past. The problem arises when we try to suggest that this pair were the only humans alive at the time and that all of our present genes derive only from a single pair.

For example, I have a family tree for my father’s side that goes back to the 1600’s. If you look at the generation of Opderbecks alive in the 1600’s on that document, you’ll see that all the Opderbecks alive today can locate Johan and Christina Opderbeck, married circa 1730, in their own lineages. This does not mean Johan and Christina Opderbeck were the only Opderbecks, much less the only human beings, alive in 1730. The genetic makeup of present-day Opderbecks is quite diverse and reflects input from a wide range of other people. Nevertheless, we all share a recent common ancestral couple, Johan and Christina. (For a more technical discussion, see Rohde, On the Common Ancestors of All Living Humans).

It is true that the sort of idea I’m floating isn’t strictly biologically monogenetic. However, it seems to me that it could preserve Paul’s federal theology and provides a plausible, even Augustinian, mechanism for the propagation of original sin.

I want to be clear that this isn’t a “concordist” scenario of the sort that suggests the Bible contains “science” that was ahead of its time. I think it’s obviously right that we can’t hang on to literalism about “Adam” and the “fall” in the classical sense of Milton’s “Paradise Lost.” However, like many evangelical Christians, my theological presuppositions compel me to look for some “literalism” about the “fall” in the sense of it being a real ontological “event” in space and time. And I don’t see any reason not to say that Gen. 2-4 is at least a highly stylized literary portrayal of “real” events. Science is helping us understand the form of the Bible’s “fall” narratives, but not eliding their essential content.

In short, Biblical genealogy is in some sense about biological relationships, but it primarily concerns spiritual-representative relationships. Biblical genealogy knows nothing of genomics or population genetics. The Bible itself, in its discussion of Abraham, demonstrates that descent from "one man" cannot be a reference to genetic science. If we move the search for a “literal” Adam away from genetics and into the spiritual and relational aspects of human nature, then, we act in a way that is more faithful to the text. And science cannot comment one way or the other on whether there is a spiritual-representative “Adam” ultimately connected to everyone’s family tree. The population genetics data concerning human evolution then pose a variety of fascinating, but perhaps less theologically troublesome, open questions.

Filed Under:
Adam, Scripture, Bible, historical, Paul, understanding, theology, faith, Christianity, hermeneutics

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  1. BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) - #9922

    April 15th 2010

    Biologos has just UN-Jumped the Shark.  Praise the Lord!!!

  2. Russell Roberts - #9925

    April 15th 2010

    This seems much more of a stretch to me that an allegorical Adam and seems to be similar to the arguments posed by those who would press upon us alternative theories in order to reconcile their preconceived ideas about the ‘authority’ or inerrancy’ of scripture. I think that the work of John Walton, Pete Enns, N.T. Wright, and those involved with Biologos are providing a much more satisfactory and plausible framework from within which to read and understand scripture.

  3. Norm - #9926

    April 15th 2010

    Genealogy was at the heart at one time but even then it was usurped by Covenant considerations. It would be prudent if one of our distinguished writers would delve into the Suzerain Covenant Treaty application inherent in scriptures regarding a King and his vassals.

    Also the “original sin” idea is laced with baggage by tying it biologically into humanity at large when the sin of Adam regarded a specific command given by God within a covenant. It was the same with the Law given to Israel through Moses and as Paul points out that without this command/law there is no sin in regards to God’s people. This implies that sin within the covenant has been abolished and is not a biological discussion. Outside the covenant is a different story however as that is the condition of humanity whom are alien and strangers to the One True God.

    I think many of us evolutionist read this story through biological eyes and not enough through Hebrew eyes. I know we like to point out our knowledge of the evolution of homo sapien sapiens but we keep getting off base from the real discussion of scriptures. We should save our genetics and anthropological applications for other discussion where they belong.

    Good thought provoking article

  4. BenYachov - #9928

    April 15th 2010

    >This seems much more of a stretch to me that an allegorical Adam and seems to be similar to the arguments posed by those who would press upon us alternative theories in order to reconcile their preconceived ideas about the ‘authority’ or inerrancy’ of scripture.

    I reply: Accept both Catholics like myself & our Evangelical separated DO IN FACT have preconceived ideas about the inspiration, authority, & inerrancy’ of scripture.  We accept them as factual trues of the Faith & to date I have found any convincing arguments against these concepts from at least a Catholic perspective.  I find the close minded kneejerk rejection of a real Adam itself to be a preconceived fundamentalism of the “Liberal” variety.  Now granted technically by strict Catholics standards I might find both Luther & your average YEC Baptist to be “liberal” in that they reject the Authority of God’s True Church & they reject Apostolic Tradition.  But what can ya do?  Practically speaking there is no logical reason for a Theistic Evolutionist to reject a real Adam.  Doing so is as much of a preconceived idea as not.

  5. BenYachov - #9929

    April 15th 2010

    edit:I have NOT found any convincing arguments against these concepts from at least a Catholic perspective

  6. Mairnéalach - #9930

    April 15th 2010

    Genetic sin can never logically mandate a historical Adam. Paul says sin entered through one man, but he also says righteousness entered through one man, and we all know that nobody is sexually descended from Christ.

    No, the only compelling reason to accept Adam historically, to me, is from the very tone of the literature itself. Adam and Eve are highly stylized at the start of the account, but by the end of it, the language is just too personal and matter-of-fact. If the Adam story had been meant as a parable rather than human history, the birth stories, family intrigue, and longevity records simply would not fit from a literary point of view. Try to imagine Jesus giving such details to Lazarus in the rich man/Lazarus story. It would have made you go “huh”?

    Insisting on a mythical Adam, I believe, is taking the vendetta against concordism too far. Important points need to be made against concordism, but not at the expense of blithely waving away human language that is just too personal to allegorize away.

    We must avoid the error of Jack Handey, who said, “we tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we cannot scoff at them to their faces, and this is what bothers me most.”

  7. Andrew - #9935

    April 15th 2010

    I totally agree that the main way that whatever belonged to Adam came to the rest of humanity in terms of a “spiritual-representative relationship.”  “Adam” was the representative head of humanity, and when he fell, everyone else fell along with him in God’s sight. 

    But if there were many lines of hominids from which humanity developed and which collectively contributed to Adam’s growing “family,” I think there are two problems:

    1) If we consider “humans” as Homo sapiens, then we ought to recognize that convergent speciation does not occur (or would that be convergent un-speciation?).  It’s not like several different hominid strains all evolved into Homo sapiens.  It’s the opposite way around; one branch developed into a multiplicity of branches, with the most successful being Homo sapiens.

    2) What do we then make of God breathing a “soul” into Adam (Gen. 2:7)?  If Adam was one literal man among many humans, how then did everyone else receive the “breath of life”?  I suppose you could invoke some sort of transducianism here, but that would get back to Adam being the physical, bodily progenitor of all subsequent ensoulled humans (not to mention a host of other theological difficulties).

  8. BenYachov - #9938

    April 15th 2010

    >What do we then make of God breathing a “soul” into Adam (Gen. 2:7)?  If Adam was one literal man among many humans, how then did everyone else receive the “breath of life”?

    I reply: Adam’s children mated with the unsouled adavists who where genetically like them but metaphysically they where animals and the children of these unions had souls.  OTOH there’s an idea brought forth by Roberto Masi QUOTE” Or it is possible to admit a biological polygenism and a theological monogenism. Evolution brought about not a single couple but many men, who constituted the primitive human population. One of these, who may be considered the leader, rebelled against God. This sin passed on to all men, his contemporaries, not by imitation, but by real propagation (Council of Trent Session V, DS. 1513), that is by a real solidarity already existing in this primordial human population. In them actual sinful humanity has its origin.“END QUOTE

  9. Bilbo - #9943

    April 16th 2010

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your very thoughtful post.  I share your concerns.  Not just Paul’s teaching, but a considerable body of Christian tradition takes the idea of the Fall and original sin very seriously.  It shouldn’t be set aside without deep, hard thinking and debate involving the whole Church.  I wouldn’t know if your solution is the best.  But coming up with a solution is secondary to admitting that we should try very hard to find one before giving up.

    If the very people that Biologos looks to for moral support—Bruce Waltke and Greg Boyd—don’t think we should discard Adam and the Fall, then should’t Biologos be listening?

  10. Andrew - #9956

    April 16th 2010

    >“This sin passed on to all men, his contemporaries, not by imitation, but by real propagation (Council of Trent Session V, DS. 1513), that is by a real solidarity already existing in this primordial human population. In them actual sinful humanity has its origin” (Ben Yachov).

    If this is correct, that sin passed on from Adam to his contemporaries by “real propagation” (sexual offspring?) then all of Adam’s other contemporaries did not have sin, nor did their progeny until their descendents’ lines fused with the branching tree of Adam’s seed.  This means a large segment of humanity was without sin—clearly contradicting the Scriptures.  What is this “real solidarity” which existed in the “primordial human population”?  The only way this works again is with a sort of federal theology, that Adam was the representative of all before God (as Achan’s sin brought trouble upon all Israel; Joshua 7:1 ff.).

  11. Edge - #9957

    April 16th 2010

    Interesting post. I am kind of new to accepting this position and I am still working out the theology as it seems most of us are. I tend to believe in a historic Adam. I have not worked out all the issues but his inclusion in the genealogy of Jesus as well as other things seem to make a historic Adam a necessity. I literally thank God for this site as I work through the theological issues that taking this position causes.

    In addition thanks for teaching me a new word. Had to look up elide. Not often I find a word I don’t know.

  12. BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) - #9962

    April 16th 2010

    >If this is correct, that sin passed on from Adam to his contemporaries by “real propagation” (sexual offspring?)

    I reply: Someone should contact Masi & ask him what he meant because I find guessing in these cases to be tedious & unproductive. 

    >  This means a large segment of humanity was without sin—clearly contradicting the Scriptures.

    I reply: I would say only those who had no souls where without sin.  The Bible is for Homo Sapians Sapians with souls.

  13. Roger D. McKinney - #9963

    April 16th 2010

    “…the word man in the translation does not appear in the Greek.”

    Actually, it does. Greeks, and many other languages, often leave out words that the native speaker would assume is there. The word translated as “one” is in the masculine form, suggesting to the native reader that the word “man” should be supplied. That is standard Greek grammar.

    I appreciate Opderbeck’s at least struggling with the problem of hermeneutics. It seems that many TE’s don’t even care about it and feel free to make the Bible say whatever they want. And I think he is correct that with Abraham the issue is geneology and not genetics, although Paul makes it clear that the “seed” of Abraham are not physical descendents in God’s eyes but spiritual descendents.

    As for Adam, the traditional theological approach has been to assume that Adam and Eve had daughters not mentioned in the Bible because writers in Moses’ day didn’t include women in geneologies. The sons and daughters would have married and had children, so there are probably people living in Cain’s time that aren’t mentioned.

  14. Roger D. McKinney - #9964

    April 16th 2010

    The article is an example of what bothers the most about TE: there is the assumption that the Bible must be forced into the mold of every fad in science. Our knowledge of genetics is still in its infancy. I remember when the appendix and tonsils were considered vestigal organs because scientists didn’t know what role they played. And today geneticists consider a large part of DNA to be junk left over from eons of evolutions. This smacks of arrogance. Simply because scientists don’t know what genes do doesn’t mean they are junk. The genetic differences between apes and humans is supposed to be less than 1%, so how do you explain the enormous physical and mental differences? Could the answer be in the “junk” DNA?

  15. Roger D. McKinney - #9965

    April 16th 2010

    What I’m arguing is that scientific knowledge is advancing and there is still a lot to learn. The odds that the explanation offered by scientists for certain facts is wrong are pretty high. But what are the consequences for determining that the Bible is wrong factually on the history of Adam? It not only throws into question the historicity of Adam, but the whole story of origins, sin and the fall. If the history is wrong, why would the spriritual aspect be right? If mankind never did rebel against God, then Jesus and the Cross make no sense. I see no reason to assume that the history is wrong but the spiritual part is correct. That seems illogical and inconsistent.

  16. Jeremy - #9966

    April 16th 2010

    Glad I’m not the only one! I had to look up elide as well…

  17. Roger D. McKinney - #9967

    April 16th 2010

    BenYachov: “Accept both Catholics like myself & our Evangelical separated DO IN FACT have preconceived ideas about the inspiration, authority, & inerrancy’ of scripture.”

    Although I am a YEC Baptist, I tend to agree with you on most things. It surprises me that people are so eager to throw out the concept of inerrancy. Without inerrancy, we are left with the same struggle as “liberal” theologians who try to decide what part of the Bible is true and what isn’t. Does anyone remember the group of “scholars” in the 1970’s and 1980’s who would vote on particular passages of the Gospels to determine if they are authentic or not?

  18. Roger D. McKinney - #9968

    April 16th 2010

    Tossing out inerrancy and hermeneutics will lead to one place—universalism. That is where the liberal church is today. Jesus was not God; Paul made that up decades after Christ. Yes, Jesus died, but he did not rise from the dead. There is nothing wrong with humanity that social engineering can’t fix through the property legislation. There is no hell and everyone spends eternity in heaven with God, who exists, but is powerless to change history in any way. In fact, God is evolving along with us and needs us to complete his evolution.

  19. BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) - #9971

    April 16th 2010

    Peace be with Roger my Baptist Brother.

  20. pds - #9975

    April 16th 2010

    David,

    I applaud your efforts.  As many have noted, there is no reason that the scientific data compel the rejection of a historical Adam or a historical fall.  I don’t see the need to pick any one solution.  I don’t think we know enough.  Tim Keller recommends the “messy” approach, and I lean that way.

    As noted elsewhere, I think Falk and Venema overstate the certainty that we can have based on the genetic evidence.  Their analysis requires several assumptions that are far from certain.  Their conclusions are no more certain than their assumptions.  I have now posted several excerpts from a discussion of the methodology of the historical sciences by Stephen Jay Gould.  Falk and Venema seem to fall into errors analogous to the errors Gould describes.  (“Perhaps the saddest aspect of this linear ranking lies in the acceptance of inferiority by bottom dwellers, and their persistent attempt to ape inappropriate methods.”)

    (cont.)

  21. pds - #9976

    April 16th 2010

    (cont.)

    Also, I quote Donald Prothero quoting Simpson:

    “Experimental biology . . . may reveal what happens to a hundred rats in the course of ten years under fixed and simple conditions, but not what happened to a billion rats in the course of ten million years under the fluctuating conditions of natural history. Obviously, the latter problem is more important.”

    The situation discussed here is different but similar.

  22. dopderbeck - #9977

    April 16th 2010

    Roger—thanks for your comments.  I appreciate your perspective.  However, I think you’re conflating and confusing a huge constellation of issues here.  The idea that an effort to understand the Bible in light of knowledge from the broader world leads inevitably to the Jesus Seminar and so on is something I completely reject.  I don’t think this is any more true than the converse caricature that YEC Baptist theology inevitably leads to a Waco-like compound of tobacco-spitting, gun-toting, racist, misogynist hicks.  Let’s try to agree that we are each engaged in the project of faith seeking understanding.

    I think epistemic virtue requires us to think about the whole of our faith in relation to all of the knowledge God has in His providence allowed us to gain.  Inventing our own “science”—which IMHO is what YEC does—in my view is not faithful to our calling to pursue what is true.  We could also spend a long, long time debating the doctrine of scripture, but in any event I don’t think using the word “inerrancy” necessarily ensures doctrinal purity, wise hermeneutics, or practical charity.

  23. dopderbeck - #9978

    April 16th 2010

    pds—thanks for those comments.  In my post (#9977) I use the term “epistemic virtue.”  I agree with you, pds, that the conclusions of population genetics studies are mathematical models, and that those models involve some important assumptions.  You might radically alter the assumed rates of genetic mutation, for example, and come up with a coalescence date that is within some historical time frame.  But here we have to ask about the basic reasonableness of the assumptions in the models, and the severity of the alterations of those assumptions that would be required to get to the result you want.

  24. dopderbeck - #9979

    April 16th 2010

    (con’t)  My understanding, based on conversations with people who study this stuff for a living, is that the kind of alteration you want would have to be dramatic—in fact, that you’d really be looking for a string of “miracles.”  Now, if someone wants to say that, based on his or her understanding of scripture and theology, a string of miracles not recorded in the Bible must have happened in human genetic history, I think that is an epistemically virtuous position, so long as those presuppositions are laid bare and the claim is not dressed up in pseudo-science.  But it seems better to me to think carefully and patiently about whether our theology and Biblical hermeneutics might also include some assumptions that aren’t well-founded.  That’s what I’m trying to do by floating the things I raised in this post.

  25. Norm - #9980

    April 16th 2010

    Roger - #9968

    Paul Seely who writes on here on Biologos and the ASA site presents this observation about the development of strident inerrancy by Protestants.

    “ In order to establish the Bible as a greater authority than the Roman Catholic Church, Turretin took his view of Scripture to an extreme. He forsook Calvin’s doctrine of accommodation, taught that every word in the Bible was dictated by the Holy Spirit including the Hebrew vowel points, and that the Bible was absolutely inerrant, that is, inerrant not only in the area of faith and morals but in the areas of history and science as well. Consistent with his absolutist definition of biblical inerrancy, he appealed to the biblical statements about the sun moving and the earth being stationary as proofs that Copernicus was wrong.

    Turretin’s view of Scripture was fundamentally adopted by Presbyterian theologians at old Princeton Seminary (c. 1840 to 1920). The inspiration of the Hebrew vowel points and dictation were formally rejected, but the inerrancy of the Bible in all of its “affirmations” (or “assertions”) including those of historical or scientific facts was retained.”

    http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2008/PSCF3-08Seely.pdf

  26. Norm - #9981

    April 16th 2010

    David,

    I really like and appreciate your sincere approach to scriptures, that’s all that anyone can ask of someone investigating the word.

    I still believe though that too many here on Biologos are still dabbling with a concordist approach by trying to tie in a biological discussion of genetics and when the soul occurred in man. Makes for a nice philosophical or anthropological discussion but that’s about it as it’s no more biblically based than YEC dabbling in flood geology.

    Adam’s Sin did not pass to all biologically nor did Christ Grace pass to all biologically. In fact in Christ “sin” is removed by an act of God through Christ. This was the removal of the Law of Moses being replaced with the Law of Christ (the Spirit). Until one grasp that sin is related to God’s Covenant then we simply will be chasing our tails.

  27. Gary - #9982

    April 16th 2010

    This is definitely an area of uncertainty for many, I know it is for me. I recently came across Denis Lamoureux’s take on it.. I think I essentially agree with him.

  28. pds - #9984

    April 16th 2010

    Dave #9978,

    Thanks for your comment.  We agree that much depends on epistemology.

    You said,

    “Now, if someone wants to say that, based on his or her understanding of scripture and theology, a string of miracles not recorded in the Bible must have happened in human genetic history, I think that is an epistemically virtuous position, so long as those presuppositions are laid bare and the claim is not dressed up in pseudo-science.”

    But I am not insisting that any number of miracles MUST have happened, and it is not driven by a rigid reading of Scripture.  I am only observing that any number of miracles MAY have happened.  Also, it is driven by a desire for good, honest science.  I think Falk and Venema’s misguided statements of certainty (and failure to discuss their historical method) run closer to pseudo-science.  (Gould: “we leave assertions of certainty to preachers and politicians.”)  I am not the one making the assertions of certainty.

  29. Roger D. McKinney - #9996

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “Inventing our own “science”—which IMHO is what YEC does—in my view is not faithful to our calling to pursue what is true.”

    I don’t think you’re being fair to YEC. They use the same methods as evolutionists; they just offer defferent interpretations of the evidence. I wonder why it is OK to offer any kind of wild interpretation of the Bible, completely ignoring the science of hermeneutics, but it’s “not faithful to our calling” to offer alternative interpretations of facts in natural science?

  30. Roger D. McKinney - #9997

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “We could also spend a long, long time debating the doctrine of scripture, but in any event I don’t think using the word “inerrancy” necessarily ensures doctrinal purity, wise hermeneutics, or practical charity.

    I wasn’t trying to be insulting. But it’s a fact that liberal theologians arrived at their current theology through much the same process as TE is following now. Once you give up on innerrancy, then every single statement in the Bible is open to question. And because “science” had proven that miracles are impossible, liberal theologians rejected the virgin birth, all of the miracles of Jesus, and the resurrection. They didn’t wake up one day and reject all of traditional Christianity completely. It was a process that took time, but started with the rejection of inerrancy.

  31. Roger D. McKinney - #9998

    April 16th 2010

    Francis Schaeffer used to argue that if we are anything like God, then God would want to communicate with us about our problems and solutions to them. The Bible claims to be that communcation of God to humanity. If you don’t agree, then you need to offer an alternative because it is irrational to think that God would not communicate with us.

    But if the Bible is God’s communication to us and it is wrong about the history, how do we know it is God’s communication? And how can we trust any of it? How can we know what is true and what isn’t?

  32. Gary - #10006

    April 16th 2010

    “I don’t think you’re being fair to YEC. They use the same methods as evolutionists; they just offer defferent interpretations of the evidence.”

    What about where it is unclear where one might even begin a non-evolutionary explanation of the data? Such as modern genome comparisons?

  33. dopderbeck - #10007

    April 16th 2010

    Roger—I think YEC does far, far more than simply offer different interpretations of the evidence.  But that is really a discussion for another day.

    I also think there are multiple problems with your link between the Bible as “communication,” inerrancy, and the Bible’s trustworthiness.  One of the big questions is what sort of “communication” the Bible contains, which raises all sorts of questions about genre, purpose, what it would mean to be “wrong,” and the like.  Aside from that, in no other area of life do we insist on some standard of Platonic perfection before we deem a communication fundamentally trustworthy.  As a lawyer, I had to deal with witnesses, testimony, and evidence every day.  The standard of proof was never Platonic perfection.  In any event, this also really is a discussion for another day.

  34. Marshall - #10010

    April 16th 2010

    Roger, you wrote that ” ‘science’ had proven that miracles are impossible”. I don’t think that’s the case. Science has shown that miracles are supernatural. If science showed that a virgin birth was a normal human occurrence, then Jesus’ virgin birth could just have been a trick. As it is, it could only be a miracle. And, the “science” of the first century would have understood the natural impossibility of someone rising from the dead as easily as we do today. Modern science has not changed this.

    Science can explore the results of a miracle (if those results still exist to be examined), but it cannot pinpoint the miracle itself. The results of the multiplied loaves and healed blind man are no longer here. The results of creation, however, are all around us.

    As for the alternative to what you list in your second post, God’s communication is not limited to a book. God spoke through prophets and most fully through becoming one of us; the Bible tells this story of communication.

  35. Dan - #10011

    April 16th 2010

    Norm. 

    I really don’t agree with the suggestion that inerrancy is a recent invention tied to Princeton and the modernist/fundamentalist debates.  I could quote numerous statements from church fathers like Augustine and Clement that mirror the sentiments of inerrancy if not the precise definition.

    Augustine is often quoted here as one whose hermeneutic would support a TE view and is used to justify an allegorical interpretation.  But he writes of the events of Genesis in “City of God’ that though allegorical interpetation is necessary to get the full meaning, the historical truth must also be maintained.  Quote:

    “Yet no one ought to suppose either that these things were written for no purpose, or that we should study only the historical truth, apart from any allegorical meanings; or, on the contrary, that they are only allegories, and that there were no such facts at all…”

    We may not know how the events of Genesis unfolded, but the historicity of the events in at least some sense has been held to be essential for most of church history.

  36. BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) - #10013

    April 16th 2010

    Concordism treats the Bible as a scientific text book that is using symbolic or primitive language to describe currently believed scientific truth.  The problem with that approach is when your science changes then your interpretation of the Bible must change.  OTOH there is no reason why we might not think God showed Moses a vision of Big Bang & Evolution and he described it using the primitive terminology and cultural references of his time.  In my view very moderate concordism would be permissible as long as one is tentative about it.  OTOH the historical reality of Adam is mostly a matter of philosophical theology and Adam’s offspring receiving souls has little if anything to do with biology.  History also has little to do with empirical science.  If Adam existed (& he did) then it’s a matter of history his genetic code is not relevant.

  37. Roger D. McKinney - #10014

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “One of the big questions is what sort of “communication” the Bible contains, which raises all sorts of questions about genre, purpose, what it would mean to be “wrong,” and the like.”

    And how does one determine what sort of communication the Bible contains? One looks at the passage in its historical context and before doing anything determines the author’s intent in writing the passage using evidence internal to the document. The problem with TE’s is that they want to say that Genesis is not wrong when it is clear that it is very wrong based on the theory of evolution. It’s like wanting to date kate and edith, too. If the author was wrong about the historicity of Adam, then we are free to make it mean anything we want. There are no limitations. Calling it a myth is just a nice way of calling it wrong.

  38. Roger D. McKinney - #10015

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “As a lawyer, I had to deal with witnesses, testimony, and evidence every day.”

    And you try to determine what testimony is accurate and what is inaccurate? How? Do you use Sumerian king lists? Of course I’m being ridiculous. You use evidence pertinent to the investigation. Some of that may be circumstantial evidence. Some of it is internal consistency.  In the trial of the historicity of Genesis, the circumstantial evidence for evolution suggests that the author of Genesis got his facts wrong because he claims it was an historical event. He is an unfaithful witness. If you find an unfaithful witness in a trial, does that cast a shadow over other testimony by the same witness?

  39. Norm - #10016

    April 16th 2010

    Dan - #10011

    The context of inerrancy is a dubious connotation depending upon whose definition one applies. The purpose of my excerpt from Paul Seely’s article was to illustrate the competitive impulse of some Protestants to one up the Catholics in an attempt to claim the higher moral ground regarding scripture. This was an attempt to set a higher bar and because of this competition IMHO we have a form of “hyper inerrancy” among many but not all Protestants.

    Regarding the purpose of scriptures; I like to stay within the framework of 2 Ti 3:15-17 recognizing that none of the ancient church fathers (post Apostles) were anymore equipped than we moderns are at determining such issues. In fact they may have less information at their disposal regarding much needed input than we do today.

    Until established conclusively otherwise I tend to side on the idea that Adam was a historical figure. The story surrounding him though appears to be decidedly theologically inclined with allegorical plots and subplots that appear to be prophetically instructive from a Hebrew Messianic context.

  40. Roger D. McKinney - #10017

    April 16th 2010

    It is the circumstantial evidence for the theory of evolution that condemns the author of Genesis to false testimony, but Christians rebel against that conclusion. What to do? Find some way to make it an allegory. But to do so, and be honest and faithful to hermeneutical principles, you have to find some internal evidence to the book that indicates the author intended to write an allegory and not a history. That’s impossible, so the next step is to claim he did it without knowing it. In other words, he committed honesty when he intended to deceive.

  41. Roger D. McKinney - #10018

    April 16th 2010

    It’s difficult to determine if someone is telling the truth in testimony in a trial, isn’t it? Is it harder when the case is 50 years old? How much harder is it when the case is over 3,500 years old? At what point does Genesis become history? Some scholars claim that none of it is. Many think that none of the OT is historical until after the Babylonian captivity. Do you have any objective method for determining at which verse Genesis suddenly switches from myth (or deception) to history?

  42. Roger D. McKinney - #10020

    April 16th 2010

    Marshall: “Roger, you wrote that ” ‘science’ had proven that miracles are impossible”.

    I don’t agree with scientists who say that, but there are two different definitions of “science” floating around on this site. One is the use of the scientific method, especially replication and repeatability. The other is the consensus of scientists. The consensus of scientists says that miracles can’t happen so they don’t. That’s why the Jesus Seminar (and Thomas Jefferson)eliminated all miracles from the Gospels. TE’s don’t like that consensus of scientists, but insist that the consensus on the theory of evolution is irrefutable fact.

  43. John VanZwieten - #10021

    April 16th 2010

    Roger,

    I think you are conflating two different definitions of “myth.”  We do use that term to describe an untruth, as in the “Mythbusters” tv program. 

    “Myth” as a literary genre is quite different.  I would suggest this website to learn more:
    http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~mmagouli/defmyth.htm

    Here’s the short definition from the site:  Myths are symbolic tales of the distant past (often primordial times) that concern cosmogony and cosmology (the origin and nature of the universe), may be connected to belief systems or rituals, and may serve to direct social action and values.

    Regardless of the historicity question, Genesis 1-11 certainly falls within this literary genre—it certainly contains symbolism, talks of distant past (even from the writer’s perspective), concerns cosmogony/cosmology, is connected to Hebrew belief and rituals, and served to direct social values.

  44. Roger D. McKinney - #10027

    April 16th 2010

    John, Is the theory of evolution myth? It is a tale of the distant past, primordial, that concerns cosmogony and cosmology. Evolutionists don’t consider it myth, but history. What’s the difference? One we think of as being true, the other is not true.

  45. Roger D. McKinney - #10029

    April 16th 2010

    Let’s remove the discussion to a slightly less emotionally charged document, the US Constitution. How would we determine what type of communication the document is? Is it poetry, history, a novel, myth? No. It’s a legal document. We can tell by the content and the organization. The internal evidence is pretty convincing. How do we determine the meaning of the document? We use the common rules of language, first. Then we look at the author’s intent. Internally, the Constitution is clear that the purpose of the document is to limit the powers of the Federal Government. We can also look at other writings of the authors. But most jurists today claim that we should interpret the Constitution according to the needs of today, not according to original intent. But they confuse application with interpretation. What they really mean is they don’t want to apply the Constitution today as it was intended. But by using the term “interpretation” they can claim to be following the Constitution while not following it at the same time.

  46. John VanZwieten - #10030

    April 16th 2010

    Roger,

    If you’ve heard Carl Sagan’s _Cosmos_ you can certainly hear a mythic component to his telling of the origins story.

    I doubt he’s the only one to do so, but most of what I read about evolutionary theory would not fit the genre of myth because it doesnt include the other elements (symbolism, belief/rituals, social values)—and is not really narrative at all.  Rather it is presented as the results of scientific inquiry.

  47. Roger D. McKinney - #10032

    April 16th 2010

    How do we tell what type of document Geneis is? Using the same methods as we would for the Constitution, we look at the internal evidence first. What is it about? It is history. Most Orthodox Christians have no problem with all but three chapters of it being history. Did the author intend it to be history? Clearly he did. Is he telling the truth? It depends on who you think wrote it. Many scholars say an unknown scribe wrote it after the return from captivity. If that’s true, then it’s likely not good history and much of it is false. Can we tell what part is true and what is not? That’s impossible.

  48. dopderbeck - #10033

    April 16th 2010

    Roger—the Constitution is an interesting case study on a variety of levels.  It’s not so easy to suss out the “original intent” as you might think.  Moreover, the Constitution is not just a “legal document,” it’s a very unique genre of legal document:  a “constitutional charter.”  Constitutional charters by nature can’t be ready statically and always have to be understood in light of the changing circumstances to which they must be applied.  Constitutions are always interpreted in light of dynamic political traditions.  You can’t necessarily learn this just by reading the U.S. Constitution.  You have to be well studied in legal and political history to understand just what sort of legal document the Constitution is—and even then, you won’t have fully answered how courts ought to construe it today.

    Anyway, we digress.  I think it’s abundantly clear, as the Biblical scholars who have written posts here on BioLogos have argued, that on its own terms Gen. 1-4 is not “literal history.”  The contextual evidence from the ancient near east, as well as the evidence from science, help us understand better what kind of literature(s) we are dealing with.

  49. Roger D. McKinney - #10034

    April 16th 2010

    Many of us think that Moses wrote Genesis. Clearly Moses wasn’t around at the creation, so he had to rely on other sources. It could be that he received the early parts of Genesis on Mt Sinai from God along with the law. It could be that he was merely recording oral traditions. If the creation account was oral tradition, did Moses think it was actual history? The internal evidence is clear that he did. He does not use a style of poetry or prophecy in which allegory is important. He even defines “day” as an evening and morning (light existed before the sun in Moses’ account). By doing so Moses defined a day, and there is no internal evidence that he meant to use a poetic license with the term because he isn’t writing poetry.

  50. Roger D. McKinney - #10035

    April 16th 2010

    Now Moses could have been wrong about the first three chapters of Genesis. But if he is wrong, he is wrong about everything in the first three chapters. He is wrong about God breathing life into man; he is wrong about anything in the creation being good; he is wrong about the fall and the curse upon mankind and the planet. No one can parse verses and tell which ones are correct and which ones aren’t. And if the first three chapters of Genesis are false, then the Gospels don’t make any sense, either. Attempting to rescue Genesis by calling it myth doesn’t help, because now we are free to make it say anything we want it say, just as modern judges make the Constitution say whatever they want it to say. No one can argue that his interpretation of they myth is truer or better in any way. You can gather a group of like minded myth interpreters, but truth does not lie in consensus.

  51. Roger D. McKinney - #10036

    April 16th 2010

    John: “Rather it is presented as the results of scientific inquiry.”

    Exactly! Internal evidence matters. Intent matters.

  52. dopderbeck - #10037

    April 16th 2010

    Roger said:  What is it about? It is history.

    I respond:  “history” with “light” created before the sun, two different chapters with two chronologically different versions of the story, talking snakes, magical trees, geography that makes no sense, a God who “walks” in the garden like a man, people outside of Eden who pop up out of nowhere .....  No, it is nothing at all like what we consider “history.”  Now, I know, you will have “explanations” for all these things… but they’re explanations that make the text into something it’s not.

    My post was not intended to suggest that Gen. 1-4 is “literal history.”  I tend to like Karl Barth’s generic category of “saga.”  Sagas are “historical”—real events usually underlie them—but they are by no means “technical history.”  I want to argue something more modest:  though the “Adam of history” cannot be recovered by “scientific” means, for those, like me, for whom a “historical Adam” may remain theologically important, there are ways in which the Bible itself allows us to relax our expectations about who that person might have been or when he might have lived.

  53. Roger D. McKinney - #10038

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “Constitutional charters by nature can’t be ready statically and always have to be understood in light of the changing circumstances to which they must be applied.”

    That’s what I suspected. You’re one of the liberal jurists. But again, you’re not talking about interpretation, but application. The rules of grammar, rhetoric and internal evidence make the Constitutiion quite clear in its meaning. I have never read a document that was clearer. But people don’t like what they read and don’t want to apply it. So they pretend it’s hard to understand. It’s not.

  54. dopderbeck - #10039

    April 16th 2010

    Roger said:  That’s what I suspected. You’re one of the liberal jurists.

    I respond:  well, I’m not a jurist, I’m a professor, and actually my judicial philosophy is pretty conservative.  And no, I’m talking about interpretation.  If you’ve “never read a document that was clearer” than the U.S. Constitution, either you don’t read enough or you’re far more well versed in 18th Century legal theory than most constitutional law scholars I know!

  55. Roger D. McKinney - #10040

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “Biblical scholars who have written posts here on BioLogos have argued, that on its own terms Gen. 1-4 is not “literal history.” 

    I really don’t care what some Biblical scholars agree upon. You can find Biblical scholars that will agree on just about anything. Besides, appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. It simply is not true that “on its own terms Gen. 1-4 is not ‘literal history’” What in those passages indicates that it is not literal history?

  56. Roger D. McKinney - #10041

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck: “The contextual evidence from the ancient near east, as well as the evidence from science, help us understand better what kind of literature(s) we are dealing with.”

    That’s like saying we need to interpret the Constitution by the needs of a modern society. The “evidence” you mention, and evolutionary “science” say that Gen 1-4 is not literal history. I agree completely. If Genesis is nothing more than a fictional account similar to that of the Sumerian kings and Gilgamesh, then it is not history of any kind. And the theory of evolution definitely says that Genesis is wrong. That also means it is not true in any stretch of the term “truth.” And there is no reason to accept any of it as being true. But neither is there any reason to accept the chapters that follow as history, either.

  57. dopderbeck - #10042

    April 16th 2010

    Roger—sigh.  It’s not an appeal to authority—I gave a list of very basic ways in which these texts on their own terms don’t read like “literal history,” and in the posts by Pete Enns, John Walton, and others, they explain this in even more detail.

    And, no, it’s like saying we need to interpret the Constitution in light of 18th Century legal history and then apply it to contemporary circumstances—which is exactly what we need to do.  Exegesis, and hermeneutics.

  58. John VanZwieten - #10043

    April 16th 2010

    Roger said: If the creation account was oral tradition, did Moses think it was actual history? The internal evidence is clear that he did. He does not use a style of poetry or prophecy in which allegory is important.

    Early Genesis has many poetic elements, most of which show up better in the Hebrew than in English.  Would you really argue that “you will strike his heal, but he will crush your head” is not prophetic allegory?  There are other parallels.  The same Hebrew phrasing in “your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you” is recycled in “sin desires to have you, but you must master it.”  The flood is narrated in an elaborate chiastic structure.

    dopderbeck said:  there are ways in which the Bible itself allows us to relax our expectations about who that person might have been or when he might have lived

    Very well-said!  That turn of phrase is worthy of remembering smile

  59. Roger D. McKinney - #10045

    April 16th 2010

    Dopderbeck: “No, it is nothing at all like what we consider “history.”

    You mean strange events like a virgin birth, turning water into wine, walking on water, raising people from the dead and being raised from the dead. Yeah, if they’re hard to believe, they can’t be true.

    Dopderbeck: “for those, like me, for whom a “historical Adam” may remain theologically important, there are ways in which the Bible itself allows us to relax our expectations about who that person might have been or when he might have lived.”

    A historical Adam is theologically important only if you accept the Gospels as history. But then, if Adam is not historical, then there is no need for the Gospels. The two are intimately intwined.

    Dopderbeck: “you’re far more well versed in 18th Century legal theory than most constitutional law scholars I know!”

    I’m certainly no lawyer, but I have take a couple of classes in business law and I know that judges and lawyers do all they can to obfuscate the simple and clear.

  60. Roger D. McKinney - #10046

    April 16th 2010

    Dopderbeck: “I gave a list of very basic ways in which these texts on their own terms don’t read like “literal history,”

    All you did was cite miracles. If miracles make a passage myth, then all of the Bible is myth.

    Dopderbeck: “we need to interpret the Constitution in light of 18th Century legal history and then apply it to contemporary circumstances—which is exactly what we need to do.”

    I agree, but that is very different from what liberal judges do. You interpret and then you apply in light of that interpretation. Liberal judges violate the principles of hermeneutics. TE violates the principles of hermeneutics in the same way.

  61. Roger D. McKinney - #10047

    April 16th 2010

    If you interpret Genesis with sound hermeneutic principles, it’s impossible to come to any conclusion other than that the author thought he was writing history. Now comes application: I can either accept it as history or not. If not, then I am free to make it say anything I want it to say. Denying it as history, but trying to hang on to bits and pieces that you like because they’re important to you is cafeteria theology.

  62. Roger D. McKinney - #10048

    April 16th 2010

    John: “Early Genesis has many poetic elements, most of which show up better in the Hebrew than in English.”

    I wouldn’t use “many.” There are a fewexamples of prophecy. And how do you know they’re prophecies? They would be complete jibberish if NT writers hadn’t directed us as to how to interpret them. The point is that internal evidence directs us to know what type of document were are dealing with and what the author’s intent was. There is nothing internally to suggest that the first three chapters aren’t historical other than the miracles. And that’s the main point of YEC: creation was a miracle! Do miracles invalidate the historicity of the Gospels?

  63. Roger D. McKinney - #10049

    April 16th 2010

    dopderbeck said:  “there are ways in which the Bible itself allows us to relax our expectations about who that person might have been or when he might have lived”

    Not if you care about hermeneutics.

  64. Roger D. McKinney - #10050

    April 16th 2010

    “I tend to like Karl Barth’s generic category of “saga.”  Sagas are “historical”—real events usually underlie them—but they are by no means “technical history.”

    In other words, sagas are a mixture of truth and fiction. If Genesis 1-4 is saga, then I can guarantee you that you have no objective way of telling what is true and what is false. All you can do is cherry pick what you like.

  65. dopderbeck - #10052

    April 16th 2010

    Roger—no, you can’t “cherry pick what you like.”  Really, that’s just an unfair misrepresentation of my views.  Scripture (properly understood), reason, tradition and experience all provide sources of norms; not every view about everything is correct.

    In any event, I think you and I have explored our differences in sufficient detail and I’ll leave it to others to respond further.

  66. Roger D. McKinney - #10053

    April 16th 2010

    Let’s change the venue again just for perspective. I debate socialists all the time. I have a masters in economics and a bachelors in theology. The main technique of debating that socialists use is redefinition. They take words that have clear meanings to most people, tweak the definitions slightly and come up with the opposite meaning. If I accepted socialist definitions of words, I would have no choice but to agree with them. But I insist on using the commonly understood meanings of words and that frustrates socialists to no end.

    I see TE’s using a similar methodology. TE’s can’t accept a natural reading of Genesis because it contradicts the theory of evolution. So they start tweaking definitions to get the result they want. Why not just say that none of Genesis 1-4 is accurate because it contradicts the theory of evolution? That would make interpretation of the Cross a little more difficult, but TE’s could simply say “I don’t understand it, but Jesus said it so I believe it!” I could respect that.

  67. beaglelady - #10056

    April 16th 2010

    Early Genesis has many poetic elements, most of which show up better in the Hebrew than in English

    John is absolutely correct.  One of the most important poetic forms used in Genesis is the chiasm, a common literary device used by ancient Near Eastern writers.  And the many plays on words do tend to get lost in translation.

  68. Marshall - #10057

    April 16th 2010

    If Ge. 2-3 is plain history, it has little relevance for us. It may explain why snakes don’t have legs or who made the first humans, but not who made us. Adam’s rib may have turned into a wife, but that doesn’t say anything about marriage today. A certain tree had fruit that imparted immortality, but it’s unavailable to us today. Maybe a serpent bit one of Eve’s descendents and got stepped on, but so what?

    Unless…

    We see the allegory. Adam, a name meaning humanity (Ge. 5:1-2), was formed from the ground by God and enlivened by his breath… and so is every creature, including me! (Ge. 18:27, Job 10:9; Ps. 104:29-30, 139:15-16) This human is split into two (male and female) and reunited into one flesh: a profound picture of marriage.

    The serpent represents our accuser, Satan (Re. 12:9, 20:2). His curse foreshadows his defeat by the second Adam (Ro. 16:20). The tree of life isn’t an alternate means to immortality, but expresses full communion with God. Being cast from the garden, prevented from eating this fruit, indicates broken communion. This is restored through Jesus’ work for those who are united with him (Re. 2:7, 22:1-2).

    Read allegorically, the story still has real meaning today. It’s not just a history lesson.

  69. Dan - #10060

    April 16th 2010

    Marshall. 

    Allegory, yes, in that the scripture has layers of meaning beyond just a wooden set of facts.  But Augustine, in my quote above, argued that it is ALSO history and that we cannot separate the two.

    Who said “We, however, who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to the merest stroke and tittle, will never admit the impious assertion that even the smallest matters were dealt with haphazard by those who have recorded them, and have thus been borne in mind to the present day?” 

    Wasn’t a 19th century fundamentalist, wasn’t a Princeton intellectual defending the church against modernism, wasn’t a Creationist clinging to a wooden literalism… it was Athanasius.

    Not that I would argue we understand Genesis 1-3 perfectly, but that the church has always held the scriptures to be true, historical, and generally understandable in the broader points.  I’m with Roger.  When science and scripture conflict, TE tends to accept science and redefine scripture.

  70. Donny - #10061

    April 16th 2010

    “Did God really say?”

    To “elide” Adam, is to eliminate Seth from existing which eliminates Jesus from existing.

    I would have to say that the whole Adam is metaphor movement, comes from the same origin as the first questioning of God to Eve.

  71. Marshall - #10063

    April 16th 2010

    Hi Dan,

    I agree with that quote that not even a small matter in Genesis is haphazard, though I don’t believe that means that not even a small matter could be non-literal.

    I do think that Ge. 2-4 is a historical allegory, as opposed to an allegory disconnected from any history. It seems to compress a huge story, spanning many generations, into an intimate story with a few characters. It’s like how Israel’s history is summed up in the story of a woman named Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16. The story is true, and it is broadly historical, but only if one pays attention to the allegory. There’s nothing haphazard about its symbolism.

    Further, both Ge. 2-4 and Eze. 16 reveal details no eyewitness historical account could. We see God’s involvement clearly, even hearing God’s thoughts. We find out the reason for historical events. It’s so much more than plain history.

    Donny, your equation with Adam and Seth seems based on the genealogies, but it really can’t be that simplistic. Adam is said to be the son of God the same way Seth is the son of Adam. Yet Adam isn’t the son of God in the same sense as Jesus! We all see some metaphorical language in that genealogy; the open question is how many links of the chain it affects.

  72. Chris Massey - #10077

    April 17th 2010

    David O,

    I appreciate your efforts to grapple with this issue. Ultimately, I think the approach you’re suggesting comes up short for a few reasons:

    1) If Adam is your “mechanism for the transmission of original sin” and he is merely one man among many, then although he will eventually become a common ancestor to all living, in the meantime for countless generations there would be two populations, those who could trace their lineage to Adam and those who could not. You then have two coexisting populations, one of fallen men, and another of unfallen men. How is that biblical? Or is God handing out souls only to Adam’s descendants (as BenYachov would have it)?

    2) You don’t seem to be addressing the actual literary context of Genesis or its genre. I don’t see you arguing that thorns and thistles were the result of the fall, but that’s what Gen. 3:18 implies. Why is one part of the story mythic but another part literal?

    3) The author of Genesis would have lived tens if not hundreds of thousands of years after Adam. How does he know Adam’s history? It requires a “dictation” form of inspiration that I find unlikely and inconsistent with what we find in the rest of Scripture.

    ...

  73. Chris Massey - #10078

    April 17th 2010

    ...

    You’ve stated that your theological presuppositions compel you to find a way to maintain a historical Adam. I give you big points for honesty. But I think these presuppositions prevent you from accepting the fairly straightforward answer that our sinful nature is the one that our evolutionary history gave us.

    Understanding sin and redemption in that context is, in my view, where we must go.

  74. Anthony Smith - #10085

    April 17th 2010

    Can anyone explain what it means “to be a direct physical descendant of the progenitor alone”?

  75. dopderbeck - #10091

    April 17th 2010

    Chris—good questions.  Let me take this point first:  you said:  “I think these presuppositions prevent you from accepting the fairly straightforward answer that our sinful nature is the one that our evolutionary history gave us.”

    I respond to this:  I think that no matter how we conceive of Adam, Christian theology absolutely cannot go in this direction.  This would make God the author of sin.  Or, more likely, it would do away with the categories of free will and “sin” altogether.  “Sin” is an invader, an active rebellion against God.  Our evolutionary has built into us various inclinations and predispositions—but it does not compel us to sin.

  76. dopderbeck - #10092

    April 17th 2010

    Chris:  As to your other points:  (1) is a problem. A couple of thoughts:

    (1)(a) It’s a problem no matter how you slice the Adam question.  We have to deal with the various species of hominds / humans that went extinct over the millions of years preceding homo sapiens sapiens no matter what.  The short answer is that God dealt with them in his wisdom according to their own capabilities.  Perhaps we can think imaginitavely here about how Aslan deals with the various creatures in the Narnia Chronicles.

  77. dopderbeck - #10093

    April 17th 2010

    Chris:  (1)(b) I didn’t say in my post that the propagation of original sin is only biological.  As human beings, we are a holistic duality—body and “soul” (I disagree with the nonreductive physicalists that accepting evolution requires dispensing with the “soul”—my view on this is probably close to John Polkinghorne’s, though unlike Polkinghorne I view the soul as more than an emergent property of the body).  Although human beings are each individuals, we share in some corporate spiritual ontology.  We are “present” in Adam, and as we are redeemed by Christ, we become “united” with Christ.  Therefore, original sin might be propagated laterally as well as lineally.

  78. dopderbeck - #10094

    April 17th 2010

    Chris:  Your point (2) —I think I addressed it both in the posts and in the comments.  I used Karl Barth’s category of “saga.”

    Your point (3)—here we get into the fascinating and difficult question of what it means for the human words of scripture to also be divine “revelation.”  I’ts beyond the scope of this discussion, but in short, I don’t necessarily see this as a problem.  Clearly, there are models of scripture as revelation in which the Gen. 1-4 narratives could be entirely post-exhilic inventions or what-not.  But I don’t see any reason to go in that direction, and for me there are some important reasons not to go entirely in that direction.

  79. dopderbeck - #10096

    April 17th 2010

    Let me throw one more tidbit out there in response to Chris:  I see one of the fundamental problems with YECism, Concordism, and many versions of TE as this:  a very flat metaphysics.  In their own ways, each of these approaches can tend to reduce all of “reality” to that which is empircally verifiable.  That is a huge, huge mistake.  “Original sin,” our “participation” in Adam,  is not ultimately empirically verifiable, any more than “redemption,” our “being united with Christ,” is empirically verifiable.  The level of our being that participates in Adam or is united with Christ surely influences empirically observable realities, in particular in how we behave towards each other.  But what we can see is the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

  80. beaglelady - #10103

    April 17th 2010

    We have to deal with the various species of hominds / humans that went extinct over the millions of years preceding homo sapiens sapiens no matter what.


    But that isn’t the problem.  We all know that entire species went extinct.  But you have, as Chris said,  “two coexisting populations, one of fallen men, and another of unfallen men”  of the same species.  Were they homo sapiens sapiens?  Where did this take place?

  81. Chris Massey - #10104

    April 17th 2010

    dopderbeck wrote, “I think that no matter how we conceive of Adam, Christian theology absolutely cannot go in this direction.  This would make God the author of sin.”

    If you accept evolutionary history then you’ve already accepted God as the author of death, disease, parasites, plagues, natural disasters and mass extinctions (all happening regularly before sin). If God is willing to create a world containing those elements, is it really that hard to think that he might permit men to evolve in an imperfect state?

    Moreover, believing in a literal fall does not allow one to escape the charge that God is the author of sin. What is the difference between creating men knowing that they would fall into sin and creating a world knowing that sinful beings would evolve? I think you will say that the free choice of Adam is the difference, but if God foresaw this and created men anyhow, the result is the same.

  82. Chris Massey - #10107

    April 17th 2010

    dopderbeck wrote:
    “We are “present” in Adam, and as we are redeemed by Christ, we become “united” with Christ.  Therefore, original sin might be propagated laterally as well as lineally.”

    You see, this is why I think the literal Adam approach is highly problematic. You’ve tied yourself up in a pretzel here. Theologically, you want sin to be the consequence of the free will rebellion of man (rather than innate to mankind), but in attempting to reconcile a literal Adam with the science you’ve had to postulate that one man’s sin spread laterally, not only to his descendants, but also to all of his contemporaries. Suddenly all of Adam’s contemporaries are sinful and NOT because of their free will rebellion.

    Imagine being a perfect, sinless contemporary of Adam and waking up one day to find that you were now a fallen, corrupted sinner, not because you did anything wrong, but because some other guy, three towns over, happened to sin. So you now have God punishing the innocent and that’s a bigger problem than the one you set out to solve.

  83. Norm - #10109

    April 17th 2010

    beaglelady - #10103

    You might consider that the “TWO COEXISTING POPULATIONS” were simply the Jew and the Gentile in the Hebrew narrative. Ephesians 2 puts forth the Hebrew perspective of these two bodies of humanity.  The status of the Gentiles was called a mortal mode of existence of chaos and darkness and that is what Adam/Israel was created (bara) functionally out of as Walton might say.

    Eph 2:3 ESV among whom WE ALL once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND.

    Eph 2:11-12 ESV Therefore remember that at one time YOU GENTILES in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— (12)  remember that you were at that time separated from Christ,
    ALIENATED FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL
    AND STRANGERS TO THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE,
    HAVING NO HOPE AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD.

    15 BY ABOLISHING THE LAW of commandments expressed in ordinances,
    that he might create in himself
    ONE NEW MAN IN PLACE OF THE TWO …

    Eph 5:8 ESV for AT ONE TIME YOU WERE DARKNESS, but now you are light in the Lord.

  84. pds - #10113

    April 17th 2010

    David #9979,

    You said,

    “My understanding, based on conversations with people who study this stuff for a living, is that the kind of alteration you want would have to be dramatic—in fact, that you’d really be looking for a string of ‘miracles.’ “

    I am definitely saying miracles may have happened and almost certainly did.  I am also saying that there were likely historical events that could significantly affect their calculations.  Falk and Venema are assuming that NO miracles happened, or at least that no miracles happened that could throw off their calculations, and that no natural events happened that could throw off their calculations.  You seem to be saying that there could have been miracles, but not likely a “string of miracles.”  What is your basis for this?  Throughout Scripture we see strings of miracles.

    When God created the universe, was that one miracle or a string of miracles?  I see the creation of mankind as an event at least as important to the heart of God.

  85. Mairnéalach - #10115

    April 17th 2010

    At Chris Massey #10104

    You said “If you accept evolutionary history then you’ve already accepted God as the author of death, disease, parasites, plagues, natural disasters and mass extinctions (all happening regularly before sin).”

    After Adam sinned, who cursed creation? Was it Adam? Or God?

  86. Chris Massey - #10117

    April 17th 2010

    Mairnealach

    According to Genesis, God did.
    But I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

  87. Mairnéalach - #10124

    April 17th 2010

    Chris

    My point is that your position unwittingly ascribes too much glory to man. You say man alone is responsible for every lamentable thing in creation. But God has not ascribed responsibility for these things unto man—he has taken responsibility for them all upon himself, on the cross. His curse was an instrument of discipline, not an assignment of blame. The “evil” is his doing, even if he remains morally innocent of it.

    If you deny this, then you deny the mystery of the atonement. You would be forced to say that the cross of Christ is the doing of man, when in fact it is the doing of God, his glory planned before man even existed.

    Creation groaned before Adam and Eve existed. Satan was prowling the earth before Adam awoke from the dust. Eve’s sin did not birth all worldly evil—it merely confirmed her participation in the evil that Satan had already begun.

    God makes all things, even the wicked for the day of destruction. He delivers food into the mouths of the young lions—not with the attitude of “oh well, I was hoping they would eat clover, but I guess gazelles will do until I can figure out how to fix all this”. The bone-crushing chomp of the lion glorifies God—it does not bring him dishonor.

  88. Chris Massey - #10136

    April 17th 2010

    Mairnéalach wrote:
    “You say man alone is responsible for every lamentable thing in creation.”

    That’s actually the opposite of what I’ve been saying. I’m saying that sickness, disease, predation and natural disasters have been around since the dawn of life on earth and are not, therefore, the result of man’s sin.

  89. Mairnéalach - #10140

    April 17th 2010

    Chris, you’re right. I misread you egregiously, I’m sorry.

  90. Chris Massey - #10142

    April 17th 2010

    Mairnealach

    No worries.

  91. dopderbeck - #10144

    April 17th 2010

    Beagleady said:  “two coexisting populations, one of fallen men, and another of unfallen men”  of the same species.  Were they homo sapiens sapiens?

    I respond:  yes, that would be a bit of a puzzle for my approach.  But I don’t see why the fixation on “species” matters.  Throughout our evolutionary history, there would have been populations of different species of humans that could have interbred with each other.  “Species” is really an anachronistic category in evolutionary terms anyway.

  92. dopderbeck - #10145

    April 17th 2010

    @Chris Massey:  don’t make the mistake of equating “natural evil” and “sin.”  “Natural evil,” in fact, is not “evil”—it is simply part of how the physical creation works.  “Sin,” in contrast, is an act of will.  God did not “create” the human decision to sin.  True, God created humans with free will, and he knew they would exercise that will in rebellion, but God did not exercise the choice to rebel—man did.  There is an important distinction here even in Patrstic theology between primary and secondary causation.  And, while you are correct that original sin always poses a riddle about human responsibility after the Fall, the doctrine of original sin does not mean that people sin without willfulness.  We are both bound to sin and willful sinners.  This, in fact, is a productive area for theological evolutionary ethics—not that “sin” is just an evolutionary development, but that we are “wired” to sin just as much as we are wired for good.  But if you elide the will, you undermine any basis for normative ethics.

  93. BenYachov - #10154

    April 17th 2010

    >Moreover, believing in a literal fall does not allow one to escape the charge that God is the author of sin.

    I reply: This is only a problem if u believe in an anthropomorphic, temporal, theistic personalist “god”.
    Two words for u my brother “Classic Theism”.

    >What is the difference between creating men knowing that they would fall into sin and creating a world knowing that sinful beings would evolve?

    I reply: Your assuming a “god” who exists in Time & look forward to the future.  God does not exist in Time might I suggest the writings of Botheus to start.  God sees & knows timelessly.

  94. BenYachov - #10156

    April 17th 2010

    If I was a “Jedi Master” &I saw threw the “Force” my Son would rob a bank I would morally have to stop him before hand otherwise I would be responsible for his crime in some way.  OTOH if I was watching him commit a crime in the present I could hardly act to prevent his future crime now could I?  God is outside time so all time is “present” to Him & happening at once.  He deals with the choices u freely made/make/will make all at once.  So he is not an author of sin.

  95. BenYachov - #10160

    April 17th 2010

    Chris Massey,

    Animals have no souls so their “suffering” is morally & metaphysically not on the same level as human suffering.  Animals aren’t sentient beings at all with some sort of subjective, interior life.  Indeed one might as well weep for the planet Jupiter when it is struck by a comet because it “wounded” the planet.  Human suffering is the result of the fall.  In all likely hood the historic Adam wasn’t in a state of Original Justice for very long.

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7645

    QUOTE” theistic evolution only pushes the problem back a notch, for the theistic evolutionist must now face the question, why would a good and all-powerful God choose to create life by means of a process so filled with pain and death as evolution?“END
    QUOTE

  96. pds - #10208

    April 18th 2010

    If Venema and Falk did a population genetics study on the leftover fish after Jesus fed the 5000 (without knowing where the fish actually came from), I wonder what they would have concluded.

  97. Martin Rizley - #10301

    April 19th 2010

    I find it curious that those who insist that the Bible must NOT be interpreted in a ‘self-referential’ manner, but “reinterpreted” within the context of mainstream historical science are the same persons who insist that the data of the natural world MUST be interpreted self-referentially, apart from the light that special revelation sheds on that data.  Why not the other way around?  Why not interpret the Scriptures self-referentially, allowing literary clues WITHIN THE TEXT determine our understanding of the text, then interpret the data of the natural world within the light of scriptural teaching?  When you take that approach, there is no way to see Adam and Noah as anything other than historical figures (the genealogies prove that beyond all doubt); and there is no way to see the the Flood as anything other than an historical event as real as the judgment of the last day which it prefigured and confirms.  Then the possibility that God created at least some things in a mature form—the first human pair, the original ‘created kinds’—is opened up to you in a way that is not possible if one insists on interpreting all physical data by the principle of methodological naturalism.

  98. beaglelady - #10302

    April 19th 2010

    If Venema and Falk did a population genetics study on the leftover fish after Jesus fed the 5000 (without knowing where the fish actually came from), I wonder what they would have concluded.


    In other words, maybe God at some time in the past took a dead man and make lots of copies of him?  Maybe for feeding 5000 cannibals?

  99. BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) - #10331

    April 19th 2010

    I think he is channeling me.  I once quipped if Jesus multiplied the fish & the loaves where did he get the wheat & fish?  Did he create them from scratch or did he Teleport existing fish from the ocean and have Angel gather the wheat & make bread?  I ask that question not to be flippant since I believe in that miracle but to illustrate that the Kneejerk anti-supernaturalism found among some advocates of TE.  You can’t rule out any level of a miraculous creation of Man or a miraculous intervention in regards to biological   monogenesis.

  100. Norm - #10339

    April 19th 2010

    “You can’t rule out any level of a miraculous creation of Man or a miraculous intervention in regards to biological   monogenesis.”

    Nor can we rule out natural evolutionary process fof the creation of man. Maybe one can have their cake and eat it too. God’s hand is clearly seen in nature and evolutionary processes and the physical side of the earths environment appears to have developed to bring us our present state of biological adaptations. How can we judge a God who knit the Universe together in such a marvelous fashion in which the bombardment of asteroids, meteors, volcanoes and super volcanoes coupled with the rising and lowering of the oceans along with the growth and retreat of polar ice caps and glaciers have played such a corrosive and yet life producing sequence bringing us to fruition. The nature of the tectonic plates that spread and collide upon the fluid earth sphere isolates and gave rise to huge animal specimens yet to see them die off time and time again in new and vibrant species waiting their time. It is mind boggling to view the handiwork of God fashioning His Creation into the fullness of time.  We look back viewing multi colored pictures which God has drawn upon His canvas through evolution.

  101. pds - #10352

    April 19th 2010

    Beaglelady and Ben,

    I had several thoughts.  Like Ben notes, it seems like a creation ex nihilo.  Presumably the fish were dead but fresh and therefore had “apparent age.”  Clearly God was not trying to fool the people.  The “apparent age” was just a side effect of the miracle to feed the people.

    There seems to be no reason to think the fish did not have DNA.  If a biologist did a population genetics analysis and extrapolated back and drew historic inferences using naturalistic presuppositions, she would be wrong, I think.

    I was also struck by the verse that follows after he walks on the water:  Mark 6:51-52 “And he got into the boat with them, and the wind ceased. And they were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves , but their hearts were hardened.

    What did they not understand?  I have some ideas, and how it applies to recent topics here.

  102. beaglelady - #10371

    April 19th 2010

    What did they not understand?  I have some ideas, and how it applies to recent topics here.

    Obviously that was directed to me, and perhaps also to Venema and Falk also. 

    I don’t see how this miracle is really and truly creation ex nihilo, rather, it appears to me to be the generation of additional material from existing natural loaves and fish. This miracle is usually known as the “multiplication of the loaves and fishes.”  The few loaves and fish turned out to be enough in the hands of Jesus. 


    Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

    Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and the men sat down, about five thousand of them. Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

    - John 6: 8-11

  103. beaglelady - #10372

    April 19th 2010

    (continued)

    I do accept miracles, and never said that I didn’t.  And I don’t think this screws up studies such as the one done by Venema and Falk.  If you think otherwise, then we cannot dismiss the Book of Mormon, which claims that the native Americans (Indians) are descendants of the “10 lost tribes” of the ancient Israelite.

  104. dopderbeck - #10421

    April 20th 2010

    The loaves and the fish is an interesting example.  If we have to think about it this way (I’m not sure we do), would the loaves and the fish from a genetic perspective appeared to have been clones?  This wouldn’t really help with the problem we’re addressing re: Adam, because the genetic evidence does not suggest some massive wave of cloning at some point in human history, nor does scripture seem to suggest that God created multiple clones of Adam.  God certainly could have done this, or He could have miraculously diversified the genetic material of Adam’s descendants in order to provide them with better disease resistance (the most diverse portion of the human genome seems to be the major histocompatibility complex, which relates to disease resistance).  But is that really the best inference?  In light of the use of the term “one man” to refer to Abraham as the progenitor of Israel, is a string of unrecorded miracles what scripture and Biblical theology require?  It seems to me that, at the very least, we have to have multiple ways of thinking through this in play.

  105. Martin Rizley - #10478

    April 20th 2010

    dopderbeck,
    It seems to me quite obvious that God has done many ‘unrecorded miracles’ in the course of history, and that is what introduces a measure of uncertainty and/or error into the historical inferences that biologists draw from the physical data when interpreted on the basis of naturalistic assumptions.  Mainstream science assumes that the natural world is in a state of ‘permanent equilibrium,’ with the physical constants of the universe remaining invariable in all places and at all times since the beginning of the universe.  I think that assumption is incompatible with a biblical worldview, which views the natural world as being in a state of “punctuated equilibrium”—with long, tranquil periods of stability being periodically ‘punctuated’ by ‘miracle-cluster events’ involving a host of ‘unrecorded miracles.’ I don’t see how anyone could doubt that these ‘punctuation’ moments in history include the period of creation itself, the period immediately after the Fall (when supernaturally caused physical changes took place in the earth), the period of the Flood and its aftermath, the period of the Exodus, the period of Elijah and Elisha, the period of Christ and the apostles;

  106. Martin Rizley - #10479

    April 20th 2010

    (continued from #10478 above)
    . . .all of these were ‘punctuation’ moments in earth’s history in which nature’s laws were temporarily suspended at certain exact locations and exact moments on the earth, as God’s power outside the physical universe supernaturally and miraculously ‘invaded the system’ of nature to affect the physical world in dramatic ways, leaving in its wake certain physical changes in the earth’s structure, the structure of the genome, etc., that would only be ‘misinterpreted’ if interpreted on naturalistic principles, in accordance with the assumption of ‘permanent equilibrium’ in the natural world.

  107. beaglelady - #10516

    April 20th 2010

    Genetics shows that the American Indians are Asian, but the Book of Mormon claims that the 10 lost tribes of Israel fled to America and were the ancestors of the American Indians.  So maybe since God miraculously pushes genes around, I can’t dismiss the Book of Mormon?

  108. Martin Rizley - #10523

    April 20th 2010

    Beaglelady,  The Book of Mormon is descredited by the way it contradicts the apostolic faith that was delivered by the apostles to the church of the first century.  Mormonism is full of doctrinal errors that flatly contradict the apostolic faith—that is why it safely be rejected by those who believe the Bible, because the Holy Spirit never contradicts Himself.  If the Book of Mormon were truly from God, it would agree with the Bible.  Moreover, truths revealed in the Bible should be received on the authority of God who revealed them, not because those truths happen to agree or disagree with the fallible inferences that fallible men draw from the science of genetics.  The apostles never invited anyone to believe their doctrines on the basis of inferences drawn from genetics, but on the basis of what God had revealed to them by special revelation.  As Paul put it, “The gospel I preached is not something that man made up.  I did not receive it from man nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”  We either believe Paul and receive His teaching, or we call him a liar and reject his teaching.  We have no right to modify his teaching in any way since it is from God.

  109. beaglelady - #10534

    April 20th 2010

    So that means I cannot blow off the book of Mormon based on genetics?

  110. Martin Rizley - #10544

    April 20th 2010

    Beaglelady, It means that if you base your beliefs on the evolving science of genetics, your beliefs will also evolve—interminably.  The apostolic faith is not an ‘evolving’ faith, constructed by men out of partial and provisional knowledge, but a revealed faith, based on the unlimited knowledge of the God who delivered it ‘once for all’ to the saints.  The apostolic faith was accredited long ago by the many signs, wonders and miracles that Christ and His apostles performed in the first century—to those proofs no further proof needs to be added.  There was never any need to discredit Mormonism through genetics; long before genetics was developed, the Christian faith had already been proven true, and its truth discredited Mormonism from the first moment Joseph Smith began hawking his wares.  Neither does the truth of apostolic Christianity rest on what modern geneticists affirm or deny; if we based our faith in the Bible on genetics, rather than on the self-authenticating Word itself whose truth has been confirmed by ‘many infallible proofs,’ that would be like moving a house from a foundation of rock to a foundation of sand to make the house more immovable.

  111. beaglelady - #10553

    April 20th 2010

    It wasn’t just the Mormons who believed the Indians came from the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Many non-Mormon Americans once believe this, a long time ago.  Do you think it could be a possibility, or does genetics have any relevance in discrediting this notion? Does genetics have any relevance anywhere? What about in a court of law, in cases of rape or paternity?

  112. Karen Pritchard - #10555

    April 20th 2010

    I love it, the miracle of the loaves and fishes - So, does this mean Jesus was the first to perfect cloning?!  Sorry, I generally just lurk, but this one has had me giggling all day.  Thanks!

  113. Martin Rizley - #10557

    April 21st 2010

    Beaglelady,  Of course genetics can be used to ‘prove’ things with varying degrees of assurance most of the time; but as I pointed out in #10479 above, a Christian view of history involves recognizing the fact that there have been certain ‘punctuation’ moments in the history of the earth in which nature’s laws have been temporarily suspended, as God’s power outside the universe has supernaturally and miraculously ‘invaded the system’ of nature to affect the physical world in dramatic ways.  It is quite possible, for example, that God intervened supernaturally in the aftermath of the Fall or the Flood to ‘tweek’ the human genome in a way that would create genetic diversity to the benefit the human race.  David Opderbeck admits that God “could have miraculously diversified the genetic material of Adam’s descendants in order to provide them with better disease resistance (the most diverse portion of the human genome seems to be the major histocompatibility complex, which relates to disease resistance).”  That is why it is unwise to use geneticsto deny clear biblical teaching concerning the descent of all humanity from one man who represented us all and in whom we are all naturally condemned.

  114. dopderbeck - #10699

    April 21st 2010

    Beglelady—I don’t think the best reason to disregard the Book of Mormon is because of genetic evidence re: the lost tribes—unless you also want to say that the Bible can be dismissed whenever archeological or other scientific evidence seems to contradict it.  Faced with such apparent contradictions, we Christians make hermeneutical moves like the one I tried to make in my post, or like Pete Enns and others have made with respect to “accommodation” (or both).  If we have to make such hermeneutical moves, why do we still adhere to Christianity?  Because the person of Jesus is God’s fullest self-revelation and all of scripture must be read through a Christocentric and Christotelic lens.  So I would say this:  the first and best reason not to to take the Book of Mormon as scripture is that it does not point to Jesus as the divine son of God.  After that conclusion has been made we can point out all the other problems with the claims made in that text.

  115. dopderbeck - #10701

    April 21st 2010

    Martin (#10478)—the problem is that as you multiply miracles you undermine the ability to know truth.  How do I know that God didn’t miraculously create this entire conversation just now?  How can I have some certainty that this conversation represents a historical train of thought between real people over time?  How can I believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead in the first century rather than God having just now miraculously created a set of documents, institutions and memories that apparently attest to that fact but which never really existed in time?

    One of the great contributions of Christianity to epistemology was the belief that the universe was created by God with inherent regularity.  Miracles are extraordinary exceptions to that regularity, usually connected to some particular blessing and/or proclamation of God’s coming Kingdom.  If miracles are the norm rather than extraordinary exceptions, we can’t really know whether anything is “real.”

  116. beaglelady - #10704

    April 21st 2010

    I never said that the best reason to reject the BoM is because of genetic evidence.  There are many excellent reasons to reject Mormonism, too many for me to list here.  The point is, that the study of natural history alone  shows that the ENTIRE BoM (not a few chapters, or a section in a specific genre)  is helplessly, totally false.  Therefore it can be rejected out of hand without even considering faith issues.  It you don’t accept genetics or any other aspect of natural history, it’s going to be harder to argue with Mormons. 

    And Mormons do believe that Jesus is the divine son of God. Trouble is, they believe that all Mormons are literal sons and daughters of God.  And they all have a kind of pre-existence before coming to earth.  After life on earth and then death,  they go through some sort of heavenly progression and eventually become gods and goddesses, each with his own planet! (why not? I love star trek.)  You can’t make this stuff up.

  117. beaglelady - #10705

    April 21st 2010

    btw, I’m not kidding!!!!

  118. Martn Rizley - #10778

    April 22nd 2010

    doperderbeck,  If a person’s thinking is really governed by a biblical worldview, they could never entertain the outrageous ideas you fear will result if we allow for ‘punctuation’ moments in the course of history involving ‘miracle-cluster events.’  A biblical view of history does not see history as one vast illusion created in the mind, “Matrix” -fashion, by a God who is out to deceive people.  However, neither does a biblical view of history allow for the belief that the course of history has been one smooth naturalistic process in which the physical world has been governed 100% of the time by unvarying natural laws that God Himself has been unable or unwilling to suspend at any moment (that is the view of mainstream science, which sees the natural world as being in a state of ‘permanent equilibrium.’)  Rather, the biblical view sees the natural world as being in a state of ‘punctuated equilibrium,’ with the material world conforming 99.9999% of the time to predictable physical constants. (continued)

  119. Martn Rizley - #10779

    April 22nd 2010

    It is that .0001% of the time that God has intervened miraculously in the world that makes it impossible for Christians to approach the study of natural history on purely naturalistic assumptions.  From a Christian perspective, one must allow (for example) the possibility that God did ‘tweek’ the human genome miraculously at some point in the past to create greater biological diversity—perhaps for the purpose of disease rsistance, as you suggest.  Does that mean that it is impossible to know the past at all through scientific inference?  That doesn’t follow.  Because God normally governs the world through certain physical constants, we can practice forensic science with reasonable assurance in matters relating to the known or recent past.  It is when science assumes that God has NEVER intervened miraculously in the world, then tries to interpret the data without reference to God and His Word, that science is treading on thin ice. God’s miraculous interventions in history makes it impossible to take that approach.

  120. dopderbeck - #10780

    April 22nd 2010

    Martn (#10778)  said:  A biblical view of history does not see history as one vast illusion created in the mind, “Matrix” -fashion, by a God who is out to deceive people.

    I respond:  exactly, which is why we can’t live with an epistemology in which every uncomfortable or hard to explain fact is accounted for by multiplying miracles that are not mentioned in scripture.

  121. dopderbeck - #10783

    April 22nd 2010

    beagleady (#10704)—yes I understand some of the basics of Mormon beliefs and have some friends who are Mormons.  Before you get too critical of some aspects of their theology, recall that many early Christians (Origen, in particular) believed in the pre-existence of souls, and that the Patristic concept of “theosis” or “divinization” remains vital to Eastern Orthodox Christianity and is being reappropriated to some extent by Western Christianity.  Though Christians have never believed we each have our own planet in the eschaton, we do believe there will be a “new heavens and a new earth” in which we will reign with Christ.  And, there are many people who say the entire Bible is “hopelessly, totally false”—at the very least, there are historical-critical questions raised by the Biblical text from beginning to end, not just in the first few chapters of Genesis.

    I’m not suggesting here at all that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity, but I want to suggest that our first and most basic way of discernment ought to center on the basic “rule of faith”—the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God and second person of the Trinity.

  122. beaglelady - #10787

    April 22nd 2010

    Look a bit deeper, and you’ll see that Mormonism is totally incompatible with Christian beliefs. I mean,  are we going to conceive spirit children after death? Are we going to have worshipers?  But, you will be glad to know that in Mormonism, Adam and Eve were exiled after the fall to Missouri. That would make it easier to spread their sinful nature, so necessary for survival of any human lineage.

  123. beaglelady - #10788

    April 22nd 2010

    Because God normally governs the world through certain physical constants, we can practice forensic science with reasonable assurance in matters relating to the known or recent past.  It is when science assumes that God has NEVER intervened miraculously in the world, then tries to interpret the data without reference to God and His Word, that science is treading on thin ice.

    So at what point in the past did God stop intervening big-time?  We need to know. (btw, science does not and cannot address miracles.)

  124. Martn Rizley - #10795

    April 22nd 2010

    doperderbeck,
    So you are saying that the scientist can rest in the comfortable assurance that God would never do anything that would make natural history too ‘messy’ to explain according to the principle of methodological naturalism?  Is that what you are saying?  You must admit that is a purely religious assumption, not dictated by anything in the physical world itself.

  125. Martn Rizley - #10801

    April 22nd 2010

    Beaglelady,  The Bible associates God’s miraculous interventions with His creative and redemptive acts in history, by which He displayed for all time His infinite power and authority over the natural world.  That would include the period of creation itself, when God brought into being the original created kinds from which numerous adapted forms have developed;  the period of the Flood, when God redeemed one man, his family, and the animals, from judgment; the period of the Exodus and Conquest,  when God delivered Israel from bondage in Egypt and settled them in Canaan; the period of the prophetic ministry of Elijah and Elisha; the period of Christ and the apostles.  Also, God has performed various judgment miracles in history, of which the Flood was the granddaddy.  Now that redemption has been fully accomplished in Christ, we have no reason to expect new “redemptive acts” of God on the center stage of history; rather, we await Christ’s coming in power and glory, when God’s miracle-working power will be visibly displayed again.

  126. BenYachov - #10815

    April 22nd 2010

    I’m not sure what your point is Beaglelady?  Are you arguing just because God can & might intervene supernaturally (& since such supernatural interventions are beyond the capacity of science to test) that means all claims of supernatural miracles(including ones from non-Christian religions) might or must be true?  That doesn’t logically follow.  Beside my original claim was quote modest.  I said we couldn’t rule out a pure ssupernatural top down creation of Man not that it happened.  Besides at minimum we MUST believe in the supernatural creation of the Human soul.  The idea that humans “evolved” their souls threw a mere natural process is Pelagian Heresy at it’s worst.  Forget Mormonism.

  127. dopderbeck - #10972

    April 23rd 2010

    beagleady—I didn’t say Mormonism is compatible with orthodox Christian beliefs.  Obviously it’s not, since they don’t believe in the Trinity.  My point is simply that we should be careful about throwing stones.

  128. beaglelady - #11021

    April 24th 2010

    My only point was that Mormonism can be discredited by science alone. The BOM claims that the Indians in Book of Mormon times were descendants of Hebrews, used horses and chariots,  wrote in an altered form of Egyptian but had a Hebrew-based language, had oxen and donkeys, planted wheat and barley, smelted iron and steel and practiced a form of Christianity.

    Well, the fact is, that’s all bunk.  (note: horses evolved in North American but went extinct after the last ice age. Our mustangs are actually descendants of the horses that escaped from the Spanish explorers much, much later.)

    So that was my point.  Even beyond Genesis 1-11 there may be issues with historicity and other points, but when the Bible mentions plants, animals, places, peoples, technology, etc. these things almost always actually existed in Biblical times.  Besides, the Bible is an ancient document; nobody doubts that.

  129. beaglelady - #11022

    April 24th 2010

    Before you get too critical of some aspects of their theology, recall that many early Christians (Origen, in particular) believed in the pre-existence of souls, and that the Patristic concept of “theosis” or “divinization” remains vital to Eastern Orthodox Christianity and is being reappropriated to some extent by Western Christianity.  Though Christians have never believed we each have our own planet in the eschaton, we do believe there will be a “new heavens and a new earth” in which we will reign with Christ.

    I don’t care what Origen and others used to believe. I don’t believe in the pre-existence of souls.  The Mormon version is very different, anyway. In Origen’s version does God really erase memories of the pre-existence, and is everyone really a literal child of God in the pre-existence?  Most similarities are superficial once we begin to dig deeper. 

    As for “divinization,” Christianity is still monotheistic, and heaven is not Mount Olympus.

    Mormons might have some good things going for them—they practice good morals, don’t drink or smoke, and seem genuinely nice. It is their theology I take issue with.  And they are out to convert each one of us, including your children.

  130. Gregory - #11095

    April 25th 2010

    I’m still wondering why neither Falk nor Venema have made comments in this thread. Does the genealogical approach hold a power over the genetic approach that is inconvenient to admit for biologists or genomicists? That BioLogos does *not* take an official position on the historicity of Adam and Eve is clearly demonstrated by accepting David Opderbeck’s well-written article in this thread.

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