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Featuring guest Richard Lindroth

Rick Lindroth | Hope in a World of Wounds

Ecologist Rick Lindroth discusses how his faith and his science have interacted.


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Ecologist Rick Lindroth discusses how his faith and his science have interacted.

Description

The question of faith and science has often been posed in only one direction—how does faith affect science? As Christians this question is more comfortable because it plants our religious beliefs in the center, keeping them untouched. But what about when the question is flipped—when science affects faith? Rick Lindroth joins producer Colin Hoogerwerf to describe how this latter question has played an important role in his life. They also discuss the dangerous reality of insect collapse and the lonely grief of the ecologist.

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Transcript

Rick:

The same commitment to pursuing truth that directs my work as a scientist, I think really enriches my life as a Christian. And I think this is true no matter what the consequences for our cherished ideas are or where those lead. Because of my scientific background, I can take some comfort in the reality that although I love simple and direct answers, the truth is most oftentimes not simple and it’s rarely direct. And that to pursue truth requires really brutally hard work and perseverance and deep reflectance off, oftentimes done best in the context of a community of believers. 

My name is Rick Lindroth, I’m a professor of Ecology at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and up until a couple of years ago I was also the Associate Dean for Research in the college.  

Jim:

Hey listeners. This is Language of God. I’m Jim Stump, your host. I’m here again with my producer Colin. You interviewed Rick for this episode. Can you give us a little introduction to him? 

Colin:

Yeah, Rick Lindroth, as you just heard, is an ecologist. He’s also a Christian and has spent a lot of time thinking about how those two things fit together and how they can even strengthen each other. And I learned a little bit about his personal journey too which included an interest in the natural world as far back as he can remember. 

Jim:

You also have a background in ecology and have thought a lot about the Christian role in caring for the earth. You brought some of that into this interview, too?

Colin:

Yeah. I talked to Rick for this interview not too long after I had read a study about the collapse of insects and several other really dire news stories about environmental damage. Our listeners might have heard some about that in the last episode as well. And so I had these questions on my mind about what a science-minded Christian is called to do in the face of these really big challenges. It led us to a conversation about hope and our role as caretakers. 

Jim:

This is our second episode in a row on ecological topics and the role of Christians as caretakers. We’ve done some of this in the past and we’ve got more articles on these topics on our website if you’re interested. And if you have questions you can jump on the BioLogos forum to talk about this episode or start your own thread. But for now, let’s get to the conversation. 

Segment 1: Background in Science and Faith

Colin:

So I’m wondering if we can start with your beginning. It sounds like you had a fascination with the natural world for a long time.

Rick:

About, from the time I was born. So I grew up in northern Illinois and I refer to myself as a free range kid. When I was seven, my family moved to the country and for the next five to six years, I spent all of my out-of-classroom time wandering around in the fields and the streams and the ponds of land that eventually became home to the national accelerator lab, which we know as FERMI.

Colin:

Did that happen while you were there?

Rick:

The land was purchased right before we moved, but my backyard just about abutted that land. Yeah. And so there’s been actually some research done that has shown that ages five or maybe six to 12 is that age is really influential in establishing nature connection. And for me that was the time it was really imprinted on my soul, on my heart. So I knew by the time I was seven that I wanted to be a biologist. 

Colin:  

So you mentioned a book and something I was looking up, How to Raise a Wild Child.

Rick: 

How to Raise a Wild Child. I love it.

Colin:

And we have a nine month old at home and so thinking about what this means. I, I grew up like you did with a, my parents lived next to a school that had about four acres of woods. Of course it felt like a hundred, when I was and I spent hours there. And we don’t have quite that same…at least my wife and I don’t have that situation now. And I think probably a lot of people and, and there’s a fear about even if you did have that…

Rick: 

Right, would you let your kids just wander in the woods? Yeah. Actually the book addresses that in a really thoughtful and productive way and then talks about how to establish nature connection, which is what loving nature ultimately is about. It’s a contact sport and how to do so at these discrete ages from birth to 5, 5 to 10, 10 to 20 and beyond. And so it’s, it’s really quite fun, quite helpful in that regard.

Colin: 

So he describes this moment when at the, in the beginning I didn’t get very far, but where he’s walking into this pond and his, his mom lets him walk beyond his boots. Do you have, are there moments that you remember from your childhood that really kind of sparked this love?

Rick:

Oh, absolutely. I think one of the greatest gifts ever given to me as a kid, and I must’ve been about seven, was a pair of rubber knee boots, which allowed me to wander in all of the ponds I wanted to, up to and over my knees. And I just spent hours out there collecting frogs, watching frogs copulate and lay eggs, collecting turtles, collecting snakes. And my parents were very permissive in the regard that they let me bring everything home and try to rear it in my bedroom or in the backyard. So those are all very memorable moments.

Colin:

So that calling to be a scientist came about pretty early. And then was it just something you held onto then and ran away with?

Rick: 

So it was really initially a love for the out-of-doors and a love for everything living. And so I went to school as an undergraduate and studied fisheries and wildlife biology and I loved that curriculum. But I also then decided that what was really attractive to me, was the science behind it. And it was really the ecology of how the world works. And so then in graduate school I shifted a bit to study ecology, the science of ecology, which is basically the interactions of organisms with their biotic and abiotic worlds, how the natural world works. And so it was rather late that I actually fell in love with the science component, but the nature came early.

Colin:

So we’re BioLogos, and we’re science and faith. So then the other half of that, then, is your faith upbringing. It sounds like Lutheran, was it, was that something that was strongly held?

Rick:

So we were the archetypical Lutheran family. We went to church whenever church was open, you know, of course Sundays, but Advent and Lent and my family took church attendance seriously. But I don’t think any of us really fully comprehended what a life walking with God was like. And I didn’t understand that until I was in college and got connected to some various interdenominational Christian groups in college. And that’s when my faith commitment became real for me. And then through continuing involvement with some of those organizations and then in graduate school involvement with a terrific local church in Urbana, that’s where things kind of came together for me.

Colin: 

Okay. So it sounds like maybe not the faith crisis that we sometimes hear about with faith and science?

Rick:

Not so much. There was a little bit of that, when I was a freshman in college, I was really questioning my own spiritual and religious beliefs. And those became mostly resolved within a year or two. But then my scientific perspective started running into what I was reading in the Bible and understanding from the Bible. And so there was some, some level of discomfort or disconnect between what I was understanding the Bible to be saying, especially in Genesis and what I was understanding biology to say. But I had the very good fortune in graduate school to be around several very wise, thoughtful mentors who helped work me through understanding what the Bible says, what science says and how they, how they can be reconciled. So that was very helpful for me. So it’s largely not been an issue for me personally since.

Colin:

This is something that comes up again and again, but mentorship seems like it was a key piece to get through that moment.

Rick:

Yes, that’s absolutely true. Having people that you trust and respect and admire, help you think through these dilemmas can be enormously helpful.

Colin:

So can you talk a little bit more about some of that tension in maybe specifically in Genesis and how you found your way through that?

Rick:

Well, this is making me think back a ways, but when I first became a committed believer, I was surrounded by people who had an opinion of ‘the Bible says it and that settles it’. I believe it and that settles it. And I struggled with that because it, I felt like it wasn’t really a very thoughtful approach to understanding the scriptures and also understanding from my science classes different perspectives that seemed to me to be fundamentally true. So there was that, that tension. But then it was just working with some mentors, working with some people at the church I attended who helped me to think through the scriptures differently. Now we say it in the short form of the Bible was not written to us, it was written for us. And understanding things like that really helped resolve those apparent tensions for me.

Colin:

So there’s a video somewhere I found online where you talk about how your faith affects your science and how that’s an interesting question but the other side of it, how science affects your faith, is the question you get less often. I’m wondering if you could tell us about maybe both sides of those.

Rick: 

Yeah, I appreciate how you asked that because I am frequently asked how does my faith affect my science? Rarely do people even consider that the reciprocal question would be of interest, right? And that is how it is, how does my science affect my faith? And it certainly does. It’s shaped me as a person. So of course it would in fundamental ways. I’ve said before, I’ll say it here again, I think I’m a better scientist because I’m a Christian and equally I’m a better Christian because I’m a scientist. So for me it’s been a really positive dynamic.

I’ll talk about two reasons in particular why I think my science perspectives have influenced my faith in a positive dimension. And the first has to do with truth, the same commitment to pursuing truth that directs my work as a scientist, I think really enriches my life as a Christian. And I think this is true no matter what the consequences for our cherished ideas are or where those lead. So because of my scientific background, I can take some comfort in the reality that although I love simple and direct answers, the truth is most oftentimes not simple and it’s rarely direct. And that to pursue truth requires really brutally hard work and perseverance and deep reflectance off, oftentimes done best in the context of a community of believers. And then as my wife, I’m sure it would be quick to agree. A corollary to all of this is that I have a really highly sensitive B.S. detection meter that’s running in the background all the time. And so, yeah. I’ll frequently say, no, no, no, no, that can’t be.

So this pursuit of truth is certainly one way in which I think my science affects my faith. Another is humility and that really works. These both working in both directions, but you know, humility derives in part from a proper perspective of who you are in the context of greater things. And again, as I’ve said before, one sure fire way of developing that is to run up day after day against what I don’t know and what nobody knows—the limits of our knowledge. So humility enables me to embrace rather than reject mystery. And it helps me to remember that I don’t have all the answers and that, you know, actually some of the answers that I have are probably wrong. And then finally, humility allows me to be comfortable with cognitive dissonance, the capacity to hold simultaneously conflicting ideas in my head and not feel pressure to resolve them.

Colin:

So I’m interested in humility, especially in regards to science because I think our culture today thinks of science as something that tells us answers and can tell us answers about anything. And there’s not a lot of humility in that notion. And I think to say that a scientist needs to be aware that some of his or her ideas might be wrong, would rub some people the wrong way. Or scare some people maybe. But you have to be uncertain.

Rick:

Yes, there are certain things that we can feel quite certain about. And again, as my wife would attest, I probably feel quite certain about a lot of things that some people are not quite so certain about and sometimes it bugs the heck out of her. So maybe there is some measure of lack of humility there. I’m sure there is. But certainly I think the best scientists have a proper understanding of the limits to our knowledge and our limits to really understand the world and hold our own most coveted and thoughtful positions somewhat loosely in that there might be new evidence that turns things around. So, you know, in my scientific career, we’ve discovered some things, we’ve explored lots of things. We have a developing understanding of how this small section of the world of ecology works. But I’m fully aware that somebody may come along and find contradictory evidence. In fact, sometimes they do. And to be able to say, well, oh, that hurts or that smarts or, I’m a little embarrassed by that, but that’s the way the world is. And to move on, cause we all again fundamentally need to be moving toward truth and not toward protecting ideas.

Colin:

Yeah. So science has kind of held together by holding on to some of these ideas, right? And I, I think back to some of the major shifts in scientific thinking. And I always liked to think, you know, oh, I would have been the one that said, oh yeah, it’s okay that the earth is round or you know, but we can’t just scrap everything every time we hear a new idea. So this is a balance we have to find.

Rick:

Absolutely. And, gosh, we could talk for a long time about this, but you know, science is not continuing to go over old ideas about does the earth orbit the sun? Does the sun orbit the earth or a, is the earth round or is it flat? There are some components of science that are so well understood that we don’t continue to rehash them over and over. Sometimes for some controversial areas of science, it might be evolution, it might be climate change, people will bring forth perspectives and charge the scientific community with being unscientific because they’re unwilling to hear alternative ideas. And they say, well, you know, science is, should be open to all ideas and that’s how we learn and et cetera. But the scientific pushback is, no, we resolved that a long time ago. The evidence to the contrary is so compelling that we don’t feel a need to continue to discuss that issue.

Now there is obviously the potential for some, you know, incorrect views to be maintained in the scientific community because of that. And there have been. But by and large, we want to keep advancing. At the frontiers of science and not kind of retreading going back over and over some of the old issues. 

[musical interlude]

Niki:

Hi Language of God listeners. We wanted to take a quick break from the episode to tell you about the BioLogos resource centers found at our website, biologos.org. You’ll find articles, videos, and other resources curated for pastors, educators, youth ministry, campus ministry and small groups. Help bring the science and faith conversation to the places that are important to you. Just click the resources tab at the top of the page. Now back to the show. 

Segment 2: What is Ecology?

Colin:

So you’re an ecologist. You’ve said kind of what that is, maybe from a textbook definition, what is it that you do as an ecologist now?

Rick: 

Okay, so ecologists study interactions. So a lot of people confuse the word ecology with environmentalism. Most ecologists, if perhaps not all ecologists are environmentalists, but ecology is a science. It’s not issue advocacy. Ecology is a science. It’s a way that we seek to understand the world around us. And ecologists are really interested in interactions. And so my friends might describe me as, oh, the tree guy or the bug guy or whatever. But really I’m an interactions guy. We study how different organisms interact with each other and with the environment. In particular, we’re interested in how chemistry influences ecological interactions and in particular the chemistry of plants. So we study how genetic factors in plants and environmental factors such as climate change or soil fertility or drought or things like that, how they shift the chemical composition of trees and then how that makes the trees more or less susceptible to attack by insects. How does it influence leaf litter decomposition in the cycling of nutrients and soil systems? How do those reverberate out to affect the structure of ecosystems? So that, that in a nutshell is the type of work we do.

Colin:

Can you talk a little bit about the role of evolutionary science in ecology?

Rick:

Yes, sure. So evolution and ecology are really sister sciences. In fact, in most comprehensive research institutions, the two are coupled together in a single department of ecology and evolutionary biology. EEB departments. And they’re closely coupled because ecology is a study of interactions between organisms. And it’s those interactions that provide the selection that drives evolution. So ecology basically explores the mechanisms by which evolution happens. And then evolution happens and it changes the genetic composition of populations, and then that in turn feeds back to influence ecological interactions.   

So there’s a nice kind of reciprocal relationship between ecology and evolution. Evolution in a sense is what happens as a result of ecological interactions over long time periods.

Colin: 

I think it was a book, The Secret Lives of Trees, that talks about these interactions that are happening in trees, the communication that’s happening that’s, the way I understand it, mostly chemical. But what struck me is just how little we know and maybe we as a nonscientific community, but even the scientific community, there’s a huge world unexplored within forests and plants. How much don’t we know?

Rick:

Oh, I was at a conference in southern California just about three or four weeks ago, and I’ve been attending this conference, which is attended by 150 of the top scientists in this particular area and I’ve been attending this conference for about 30 years. And every time I go, I’m impressed by the capacity of science to peel back another layer of complexity and realize there is an entire, an entirely new universe before us that we didn’t know existed before. And it’s at once fascinating and awe inspiring and completely frustrating. Just when we think we’re beginning to understand something and that we, that we boxed it in sufficiently that we’re really going to work this out, then it becomes way more complicated. This is like, you know, once we have the human genome, we’re going to understand the genetic basis of disease, right? Well, oh no, now we’ve got all kinds of other factors that are popping up in the genome isn’t quite as static as we thought it was. So same thing happens with ecology. There are just layers upon layers of complexity that as you start understanding one, then you begin to expose other layers. And it’s wonderful and frustrating all at the same time.

So there are just some examples of the complexity. So I studied chemical ecology, and that’s how chemical components in plants influence interactions with other organisms, such as with herbivores, insect herbivores, things that eat plants. So for a hundred years it was thought that plants produce this vast array of chemical compounds as waste products. We know them as things like nicotine and caffeine, and ephedrine and morphine and all kinds of potentially toxic compounds, which now we understand, evolved to protect insects from or protect plants from insects. But then insects evolve or adaptations that allow them to feed on these plants.

Well, not only do plants have these compounds, but if they’re fed on, they can induce production of these compounds so they can increase their expression of these defense compounds. Well, that’s interesting, but not only that, if a caterpillar feeds on a plant, the plant might start releasing volatile chemicals that attract natural enemies of that insect herbivore. And all of a sudden they’re bringing in parasitoids and predators that will help remove those insect herbivores from the plants. Now, more recently, we’re understanding that the gut microbiome, the microbial organisms that are inside the herbivorous caterpillars, influenced their oral secretions in a way that influences the plants to produce particular compounds that attract or don’t attract particular natural enemies of those insects. And so, as I said, every time we think we’re starting to get a handle on things it opens up a whole new universe of complexity.

Colin:

And I suppose these things can be explained through evolutionary science. But it just, it amazes you at the complexity of how this system fits together. But fits together because it grew together.

Rick:

Right. I mean, on the one hand, sometimes I feel I’m getting so focused on the mechanisms that I need to remind myself to sit back, step back and marvel at the wonder. But you’re right, there is complexity at so many different levels. It’s just awe inspiring.

Colin:

One response, I think, to someone hearing that would be wow, God is so amazing. And I think that is a good response. Though I also wonder if that response sometimes misses what’s going on behind the scenes.

Rick:

Yeah, I’m careful in how I address comments like that because fundamentally, God created the universe. And he created life in a way that allows life to adapt and evolve and create new life over evolutionary time scales. So that is all completely amazing. I’m not one who looks at the complexities of ecological systems or environments as reflecting God’s specific unique act of creation as they are, but rather as evolving as adaptive responses to changes in their environment and from the genetic material that they have to work with, which in many ways is just as awe inspiring that there is a creator who established life in a way to adapt and evolve and to change in response to the environment around it.

[musical interlude]

Segment 3: Insect Collapse and Climate Change

Colin:

So I want to move here to talk a little bit about some of these studies, particularly a study that has looked at the insect collapse. As someone who has some training in science, and you’ve quoted this Leopold quote, I think too, but, “the penalties of an ecological education mean one lives alone in the world of wounds.” And I’ve felt this. And in some ways I think it’s led to becoming desensitized to some of the news I read. But this one really hit me when I read it because of the implications and maybe because of a time scale. Can you tell us a little bit more just about the science of those studies?

Rick:

Sure. But let me back up first and just comment a bit about your comment about the Leopold quote. I love that quote. And I feel very much for much of my life I’ve been carrying with me this kind of background level of grief, this strong feeling of angst that things are not the way they should be, that the people around me are oblivious to. So yeah, that is, as Leopold says, a penalty of an ecological education.

Colin:

There’s something that when you, when you learn how the ecological world works, you begin to see it really differently. One person can walk through a forest and just be in awe of the green and the life. Where a scientist can walk through and pick out all of the non-native species. [That’s right.] And see the, maybe even see the rare creature but know it’s imperiled and look at the water and see the quality. And it’s like these two people that have these totally different experiences in a place.

Rick: 

Have you been talking to my wife or kids because that’s exactly what they would tell you.

Colin:

And I sometimes struggle finding a balance there. Because you want to acknowledge someone’s joy in being outdoors. And you don’t want to say, oh, your joy is not, you shouldn’t have that much joy because things are really wrong here for some reason.

Rick:

Absolutely. And I really understand where you’re going with those comments. Cause I do simultaneously carry this sense of joy and wonder and sadness. So when we drive through the North Woods of Wisconsin and see this second or third stage growth and the forests that are largely populated with birch and aspen and some maples and people just marvel at the forest. And I look at it and I’m sad and they have no understanding of why a person would be sad. I’m sad because I’m thinking, yeah, but what they were before, these grand forests of red pine and white pine that no longer exist. I have a postdoc in my group now from Switzerland and he spent some time on Lake Michigan recently and was marveling at the clear water and the blue green tones to the water and how beautiful it is. And I simply didn’t have the heart to tell him that that’s a consequence of an invasive species, zebra mussels, that have dropped, have increased the clarity of the water enormously, but have imposed just extraordinarily negative impacts on the Great Lakes ecosystems. So you’re right, we see things differently and it sometimes is difficult to find the balance between appreciation and marveling on the one hand and just kind of a deep grief or sadness on the other, that things aren’t the way that they once were or perhaps should be. 

Colin:

So with the insect collapse, how worried should we be?

Rick:

That’s a good question. Some of the recent research that came out has suggested that roughly 40% of insects are in decline and a third of species and insect species might be endangered. That recent publication that had some very significant impacts in the scientific world, it’s causing people to sit up and take notice. Now that was a review based on like 70 some different studies in there just are not very many long-term studies done in many places of the earth. So is it really 40% who knows? It could be 60%, it could be 20%. But we do know that insects are imperiled. Many, many, many species of insects are and insects form in many ecosystems kind of the basis of the trophic food chain. What do most of our bird species eat? What do virtually all reptiles and um, many fish and amphibians eat? So they’re the basis of our food chains. They are the provisioners of many critically important ecosystem services, things like pollination and soil formation. So yeah, this is very significant and somewhat alarming, but completely consistent with what we’ve known for a number of years to be happening with mammals and birds and other vertebrate species as well.

Colin:

So one of the main drivers in that study was listed as our current agricultural practices, specifically pesticide use. I recently had been thinking about Sabbath. Our current agricultural practices are all about control and efficiency. And with a Sabbath mindset, you say, I’m not in control and let’s give the land a rest. So that makes me wonder if the church really has a major role to play here, and maybe not only here, but also maybe with climate change.  What do you think the role of the church is in our environmental situation?

Rick:

So I think the church definitely should be leading in many of these areas. Uh, a proper understanding of who God is as creator and who he is as redeemer I think would provide a very solid theological basis for humans coming along beside him in those efforts. So if we understand that the greater meta-narrative of which we are all a part of, creation, rebellion or the fall, redemption, ultimately restoration that God has called us to be part of his justice redemptive restorative mission that extends to the natural world as well. His first command to humans was to tend and care for his creation. And we are given to forget that or neglect that. So I think proper understanding of theology would move us in the direction of greater care for the environment. And it’s completely biblical in terms of simply knowing who God is as creator and redeemer.

It’s also important in terms of loving our neighbors as ourselves. Throughout the world the people who suffer most from environmental degradation are those who are living in poverty and under other aspects, components of social injustice. So in loving our neighbor, we would be creating environments that would help them to flourish as well. Should the church be involved in those things? Absolutely, I think it should. Does that mean every individual Christian needs to make that their life’s mission? No. You know, we know from the, it’s clear from the New Testament that a church has many members and they have different gifts and they have different passions. So yes. Should the church be doing something? Absolutely. Should every individual? No. Different individuals have different passions, but I think the church should be leading in the effort and not dragging its heels, which is what seems to be the case.

Colin:

Yeah. So as a Christian, I think it can be tempting to think God is in control of everything and everything will be fine. There’s no need for us to do anything, let alone sacrifice anything. But it, as you have pointed out and many Bible scholars point out, we do have a responsibility to steward the world. But how have you found a balance between working towards solutions but also trusting the work of God? Because I think overconfidence in science and technology is probably not the right answer either?

Rick:

Right, definitely is not the right answer and certainly is not the only answer. So this brings up the whole issue of hope or in particular Christian hope. What hope do we have? So I know some people who feel, for example, with respect to climate change, God just is not going to let things get bad enough that the world is going to suffer in the way that the scientists are predicting. I have some difficulty with that because if God is going to change the nature of the world such that it’s not going to be impacted by climate change, then he’s going to have to change some physical constants like changing for example, the temperature at what, at which water boils or the pull of gravity. And the God I know has not had much of a discernible record of changing physical constants. And so I’m not so sure he’s going to intervene in the affairs of humans to, you know, change the path, the trajectory we’re on.

Also, I think there’s a little bit of maybe North American central thinking there and that climate change is already impacting lots of people and God hasn’t done anything yet, at least, you know, to change the trajectory of the climate. So, yeah, I have some reservations about that. So fundamentally, if we understand our Christian theology well, we know that there is going to be an ultimate hope in which when Christ returns, everything will be restored back into proper relationship with him, the entire universe, including the natural world. That’s the long-term ultimate hope. Does that mean we don’t do anything now? Well, no, we don’t have that attitude, attitude about other areas of human endeavor, right? We work diligently. So there’s the proximate hope. What should we be doing in the interim to help effect or bring the ultimate hope about? And we need to be doing that with realism as well as with optimism that we can actually affect changes that will positively influence people’s lives.

There is a quote from Augustine that I really like in this regard, who said effectively that hope has two daughters, their names are anger and courage. Anger to see the things as they are and courage to make sure that they don’t stay as they are. I really like that because it’s not kind of have this ethereal hope that things are going to get better, but it’s a realistic view of what the way things are and then motivation to change them. And that’s the proximate type of hope that I would like to see emerge and dominate our Christian thinking and activities.

Colin:

Yeah. That’s really good that that allows for is to take fear and anger and move in a different direction.

Rick:

And I, and I think we need to hold out hope. Even the, even most of the scientists I know who are not at all religious people would say hope is enormously important. Fear is a really good motivator in the short run. It’s not a good long term motivator. People become, as you said, desensitized or paralyzed. So, what’s going to motivate us in the long run and, and hope is something that can, I mean historically look at the history of slavery in America. I mean, the hope is something that has sustained people in very difficult circumstances for long periods of time. And that’s the type of hope I think we need.

Colin:

I’m curious about in your profession and maybe just in the university, what’s it like to be a Christian in a top level research university?

Rick:

Okay. Yeah, that’s a really good, and kind of a fun question. The university where I’ve had my entire career is considered among the top five or six research institutions in the nation. And I actually worked as the research dean for six years in the college in which I’m in. So I’m pretty familiar with the whole research world. There is this narrative, prominent narrative in the Christian community that large research institutions are hostile to Christian faith. And that those poor professors who are Christians must really face extraordinary difficulties and progressing in their academic achievements in progressing up whatever the ladder of assistant professor to associate to full of getting tenure of doing all those things that professors are expected to do, that they must face really significant challenges in those respects.

I’ve never experienced that. And that is not to say that others don’t. But in my university it’s just not an issue in my area. Now, there might be some of that I think is probably tougher for people in the humanities, to be honest. But in the sciences I’ve just not seen it to be an issue. And I know a number of my colleagues at, at my university would, would agree with that. So I’ve just not found any push back whatsoever. Now curiosity, yes. Some incredulity, yes. Um, Perhaps misunderstanding, yes. But never anything even hinting at antagonism or hostility. So I feel perfectly comfortable working out my life as a scientist in that context. And to be honest, it’s actually been really fun because I get to rub shoulders with some of the best scientists in the world on a daily basis.

Colin:

Well, thanks so much for doing this. This was fun.

Rick:

Yeah, it was fun for me. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Credits

Mulder:

Language of God is produced by BioLogos. It has been funded in part by the John Templeton Foundation and more than 300 individuals who donated to our crowdfunding campaign. Language of God is produced and mixed by Colin Hoogerwerf. Our theme song is by Breakmaster Cylinder. We are produced out of the BioLogos offices in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

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Featured guest

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Richard Lindroth

Richard (Rick) Lindroth (Ph.D., University of Illinois-Urbana) is a Vilas Distinguished Achievement Professor of Ecology Emeritus and former Associate Dean for Research at the University of Wisconsin- Madison. His research focused on evolutionary ecology and global change ecology in forest ecosystems. He has been a Fulbright Fellow and is an elected Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), the Ecological Society of America, the Entomological Society of America, and the American Scientific Affiliation. Funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, U.S. Department of Agriculture, and other agencies, Rick and his research group have published 250 journal articles and book chapters. Rick is currently working as a Distinguished Research Fellow with The Lumen Center, a community of scholars working at the intersection of Christianity and culture. He speaks to public and faith-based groups about creation care, climate change, biodiversity, and science denialism/communication (see this profile in The Washington Post). Rick serves on the Board of Directors for A Rocha USA and an advisory board for Science for the Church. He and his wife have two daughters and three grandchildren. For recreation, they enjoy road cycling, flyfishing and reading, though not necessarily in that order.  

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