“Come and See”: A Christological Invitation for Science, Part 2
"The BioLogos Forum" is pleased to feature essays from various guest voices in the science-and-religion dialogue. Please note the views expressed here are those of the author, not necessarily of The BioLogos Foundation. You can read more about what we believe here.
Today's entry was written by Mark Noll. Mark Noll is a historian, essayist and professor specializing in the history of American Christianity. Since 2006 he has been the Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History at the University of Notre Dame. His books include America’s God: From Jonathan Edwards to Abraham Lincoln; God and Race in American Politics: A Short History and The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, which has been widely recognized for making a strong appeal for a better approach to intellectual life among American evangelicals.
In part one of this series (taken from Mark Noll's new book Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind), Noll introduced the complex nature of the relationship between science and faith and discussed pre-modern conceptions about it, which were largely harmonious. Augustine,way back in the fifth century recognized the need for caution and emphasized the need Christians to take great care in their discussions of nature, lest they distract from the central message of Scripture which is new life in Christ. This christological concern manifest itself in earnest beginning in the 16th century when a growing body of scientific knowledge called into question an array of “literal” interpretations of Scripture. In this, part II of the series, Noll “explores historical reasons for the difficulties besetting efforts at bringing scientific knowledge and biblical wisdom together.”
The Bible and Science Historically Considered
Of the many books that have treated the record of religious-science engagement since the sixteenth century, the best have demonstrated that there has never been a simple conflict between biblical theology and natural science.1 Rather, that history has been marked by a sustained series of negotiations, breakthroughs, well-publicized flashpoints, much conceptual rethinking, lots of ignorant grandstanding, some intellectual overreaching by starry-eyed avatars of a supremely all-competent “Science,” some intellectual overreaching by determined “defenders” of Scripture, much noncontroversial science carried out by Christians, a huge quantity of scientific advance accepted routinely by believers, and much more.
At the dawn of modern science in the early seventeenth century, the iconic experimenter and polemicist Galileo Galilei recorded exceedingly wise words about how to combine investigations of nature with complete trust in Scripture. Implicit in his comments was an anchorage in christological realities that I hope to make explicit at the end of this chapter. If Galileo’s guidelines had been followed, the history of science and religion in the modern West would have been much calmer than what actually unfolded. Galileo’s comments are worth quoting in full before exploring why it has been so difficult to follow his proposals for peace between belief in Scripture and reliance on the results of scientific investigation. His standpoint combined a number of basic dispositions:
trust that sense experience, rigorously controlled and creatively contemplated, could reveal truths about nature;
trust that biblical interpretation and scientific interpretation cannot in principle conflict because God is the author of both Scripture and nature;
realization that much in the Bible is not intended as a scientific description of the world;
realization that interpretation of Scripture and interpretation of nature often require legitimately different procedures; and
confidence that what God allows humans to learn about nature could help discern what God has revealed in Scripture.
Here is what Galileo wrote:
It is most pious to say and most prudent to take for granted that Holy Scripture can never lie, as long as its true meaning has been grasped; but I do not think one can deny that this is frequently recondite and very different from what appears to be the literal meaning of the words. . . . I think that in disputes about natural phenomena one must begin not with the authority of scriptural passages but with sensory experience and necessary demonstrations. For the Holy Scripture and nature derive equally from the godhead, the former as the dictation of the Holy Spirit and the latter as the most obedient executrix of God’s orders; moreover, to accommodate the understanding of the common people it is appropriate for Scripture to say many things that are different (in appearance and in regard to the literal meaning of the words) from the absolute truth; on the other hand, nature is inexorable and immutable, never violates the terms of the laws imposed upon her, and does not care whether or not her recondite reasons and ways of operating are disclosed to human understanding; but not every scriptural assertion is bound to obligations as severe as every natural phenomenon; finally, God reveals Himself to us no less excellently in the effects of nature than in the sacred words of Scripture . . . ; and so it seems that a natural phenomenon which is placed before our eyes by sensory experience or proved by necessary demonstrations should not be called into question, let alone condemned, on account of scriptural passages whose words appear to have a different meaning. However, by this I do not wish to imply that one should not have the highest regard for passages of Holy Scripture; indeed, after becoming certain of some physical conclusions, we should use these as very appropriate aids to the correct interpretation of Scripture and to the investigation of the truths they must contain, for they are most true and agree with demonstrated truths. . . . I do not think one has to believe that the same God who has given us senses, language, and intellect would want to set aside the use of these and give us by other means the information we can acquire with them, so that we would deny our senses and reason even in the case of those physical conclusions which are placed before our eyes and intellect by our sensory experiences or by necessary demonstrations.2
As helpful as what Galileo said in the early seventeenth century may still be 400 years later, it is obvious that his hopes for smooth sailing on the sea of science-religion interaction have not been realized. The tumults that have arisen, however, are not random or uncaused. Many, in fact, have been propelled by habits of mind established in Western thinking well before the age of scientific revolution or that came to prominence during the era of the Enlightenment. In other words, thinking about science and religion has always been strongly influenced, sometimes absolutely determined, by important assumptions about how that thinking should take place.3
Because some of these assumptions arose in the Middle Ages, the recondite debates of thirteenth-century Catholic philosophers actually go far in explaining difficulties that continue to this day.4 One particular dispute that has exerted a great influence on later Western history concerned the relationship of God’s being to all other beings. Thomas Aquinas, the Dominican friar who lived from 1225 to 1274, argued that this relationship was analogical, that is, while humans and the created world were certainly like God in many ways, the essence of God remained ultimately a mystery known only to himself. Aquinas may well have been thinking of the passage in Isaiah 55:9 where the Lord tells the prophet,
As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
The fact that God created the world out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) was a crucial part of Aquinas’s argument, because it meant that, while human minds could understand communication from God (i.e., revelation in nature, in Scripture, in Jesus Christ), they could in principle never grasp the essence of God. An interesting by-product of this position, which has taken on surprising relevance in contemporary debates, was Aquinas’s understanding of randomness or contingency. Everything in the world, he insisted, happened because of God’s direction. But some things happen contingently, or with the appearance of randomness. The logic of their contingency was perfectly clear to God, but because God in his essence is hidden to humans, humans may not be able to grasp how what they perceive as random could be part of God’s direction of the universe.
The opposing view was maintained by the Franciscan priest and philosopher Duns Scotus, a younger contemporary of Aquinas who lived from 1266 to 1308. His position argued for the univocity of being. The only way to know the essence of anything is through its existence. Although God is much greater and much wiser than humans, his being and the being of all other things share a common essence. God is the creator and redeemer of humans, but his actions toward humans can (at least potentially) be understood reasonably well because the same laws of being apply to God as to everything else; the same way that we explain causation in every other sphere explains how God causes things to act and to be.
Scotus’s approach to metaphysics (= the science of being) became, with a few exceptions, the dominant view in later Western history. It was particularly significant when joined to one more principle, this one from the English Franciscan, William of Ockham (1288-1348). Ockham’s famous “razor” held that the simplest explanation was always the best explanation (“do not multiply entities unnecessarily”). Applied to science, this principle came to mean that if a natural event is explained adequately by a natural cause, there is no need to think about supernatural causes or even about the transcendent being of God. The combination of these philosophical positions is responsible for an assumption that prevails widely to this day: once something is explained clearly and completely as a natural occurrence, there is no other realm of being that can allow it to be described in any other way.
For a very long time, this assumption was not regarded as anti-Christian, since God was considered the creator of nature and the laws of nature as well as the active providential force that kept nature running as he had created it to run. During the Reformation era, Protestants maintained that conviction, but also began to place a new stress on the importance of Scripture for understanding God, themselves, the church, and everything else.5 That emphasis was one of the important factors accelerating the rise of modern science. In particular, as Protestants set aside symbolic interpretations of Scripture, which had been prominent in the Middle Ages, they stressed straightforward examination of texts in what was often called a literal approach. This approach, in turn, stimulated a similar effort at examining the natural world in such a way that the medieval idea of God communicating to humans through “two books” (nature and Scripture) took on greater force. The assumption that became very important in this process was that those who believed God created the physical world and revealed himself verbally in Scripture should harmonize in one complete picture what they learned about nature from studying nature and what they learned about nature from studying Scripture. In both cases, literal knowledge was crucial, along with a belief that sources of literal knowledge could be fitted together harmoniously.
By the late seventeenth century, when science in its early modern form began to expand rapidly, yet a third conviction became important, which was worked out especially in the many efforts that went into constructing natural theology.6 Natural theology was the project of explaining, often in considerable detail, what God’s purposes were in creating the various parts of nature. Natural theology became a major enterprise when the earlier assumptions — metaphysical univocity and harmonization of the “two books”—encountered rapidly expanding knowledge about the physical world. Learned believers recognized the potential threat of this expanding knowledge—if scientific investigation could explain how nature worked as a system unto itself, maybe reliance on God and reference to the Scriptures were expendable. In response to this challenge, savants like Cotton Mather in the American colonies (The Christian Philosopher, 1721) and William Denham in England (Physico-Theology, 1713) offered elaborate explanations for how the structures of the physical and animal worlds revealed God’s purposes in creating things as he had made them.
The tradition of natural theology received its most famous exposition in a book by William Paley, an Anglican archdeacon, published in 1802. Its title explained what it was about: Natural Theology: or, Evidence of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, collected from the appearances of nature. Paley’s method was to describe features of animal, human, or material life and then to show how these features manifested God’s design in and for nature. For example, the fact that animal and human bodies were symmetrical in outward appearance even as their internal organs and functions were asymmetrical provided Paley with “indubitable evidences, not only of design, but of a great deal of attention and accuracy in prosecuting the design.”7 The very important assumption behind the natural theology promoted by Paley was that not only did God create and providentially order the natural world, but humans could figure out exactly how and why God ordered creation as he did. This assumption became critically important when later investigators of nature concluded that it was not necessary to think about God’s intentions when figuring out how nature worked, and so belief in God was wrongheaded. In turn, those conclusions naturally antagonized the ones who continued to believe in God and therefore insisted either that new discoveries did in fact reveal a providential design or that the new discoveries had to be false.
Perhaps not many today who are engaged with contemporary debates in science and religion pause to think about historical turning points deep in the past. But the assumptions of univocal metaphysics, harmonization, and natural theology created powerful channels in which much subsequent discussion has flowed. During recent decades, much of the conflict involving religion and science has resulted from polemicists on all sides carrying deeply entrenched convictions, attitudes, and assumptions into the present. Sorting out ancient mental habits from recent novelties is difficult, however, in part because there are so many different factors feeding into the current situation, and in part because evaluating these factors requires delicately balanced judgments. As examples of broader concerns, the awareness that nonbelievers of several types regularly use the supposedly assured result of modern science to attack traditional Christianity is hardly a baseless fantasy. In addition, Christian believers of all sorts can only applaud the devotion to Scripture that has been so prominent in conservative Protestant history, but many believers today — including a growing number of evangelicals —question some of the assumptions about how best to interpret Scripture that evangelicals sometimes treat as interchangeable with trust in Scripture itself.
When considered historically, however, it seems obvious that the modern strength of young-earth Creation Science is almost entirely explainable as the continuation of former predispositions.8 To be sure, skillful publications like John Whitcomb and Henry Morris’s The Genesis Flood, which appeared in 1961, have added new elements to the mix. And of course, they have been matched blow for blow by skillful antitheistic works like Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion that was published in 2006.
Yet the terms of debate in this modern polemical literature depend almost entirely on assumptions about metaphysical univocity, harmonization, and natural theology — as applied to modern questions and disseminated by democratic appeals to a broader public. In its turn, the Intelligent Design movement, with much more sophistication, still demonstrates a strong commitment to metaphysical univocity, harmonization, and natural theology, along with the use of modern probability theory and a tendency to treat the court of public opinion as a capable judge of controversial issues. Again, critics of Creation Science and Intelligent Design, both believers and unbelievers, also often share some of these attitudes, especially those derived from metaphysical univocity, harmonization, and natural theology.
If what I have sketched here portrays the past with any accuracy, it should be clear that when conservative Bible-believers object to different aspects of modern science, they do so on the basis of assumptions as well as arguments. Often missing in those considerations, however, are direct appeals to the heart of the Christian faith as defined by the person and work of Christ. Coming back to that center offers a better way of discriminating more accurately between assumptions well grounded in solid theology and those that are not.
In Part III, Noll goes on to study a positive case study where the central christological concerns were well maintained—the work of B.B. Warfield.
Notes
1. See especially John Hedly Brooke, Science and Religion: Some Historical Perspectives (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1991); David C. Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers, eds., God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Christianity and Science (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1986); and David C. Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers, eds., When Science and Christianity Meet (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2003). An excellent reference work is Gary B. Ferngren, ed., The History of Science and Religion in the Western Tradition: An Encyclopedia (New York: Garland, 2000).
2. “Galileo’s Letter to the Grand Duchess” (1615), in The Galileo Affair: A Documentary History, ed. Maurice A. Finocchiaro (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), 92-94.
3. The following paragraphs are taken, with revisions, from Mark A. Noll, “Evangelicals, Creation, and Scripture: An Overview,” BioLogos Forum (November 2009), available from biologos.org/uploads/projects/Noll_scholarly_essay.pdf (accessed May 17, 2010).
4. This section relies on Amos Funkenstein, Theology and the Scientific Imagination from the Middle Ages to the Seventeenth Century (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1986), especially 25-31.
5. See in particular Peter Harrison, The Bible, Protestantism, and the Rise of Natural Science (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1998).
6. For particularly astute treatment, see Brooke, Science and Religion, 192-225.
7. William Paley, Natural Theology, ed. Matthew D. Eddy and David Knight (New York: Oxford University Press, 2006; original 1802), 101.
8. For the best history, see Ronald L. Numbers, The Creationists, expanded ed. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2006), and for a solid general survey, Michael Ruse, The Evolution-Creation Struggle (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2005).


August 15th 2011
A very interesting and illuminating article, Mark. Thanks. It would seem that you’re pinning much of the responsibility for current controversies on the historical predominance of Scotism, and by implication inviting a revisiting of the Thomist position.
Reply to this commentOne question that occurs to me, apart from the areas cited above, is whether Scotist univocity also underlies some of the modern (and postmodern) attitudes to Scripture itself. Both Aquinas and Galileo seem to be attributing Scripture in its entirety to God’s revelation, understanding that as being in a different category to natural revelation, and revealing something of the higher, spiritual nature of God and of the world in analogical terms.
On the contrary, much discussion of Scripture seems now (including on this forum) to focus on its human limitations, judged on the naturalistic presuppositions of historicity, psychology and so on. Indeed, the same approach is made to Christ as the Word of God, viewing him as humanly limited rather than as divinely accommodating to us regarding truth.
Even God himself in a number of models is viewed as restricted to the same mode of existence as nature, and so being subject to natural law (such as time), evolutionary contingency, human choices and so on.
Whilst these views will set themselves against atheist naturalism, young earth creationism or ID research, it appears to me that the same philosophical bias underlies them too.
At the same time the Thomist understanding, whilst encouraging us to see God’s being and activity on a quite separate plane from the physical world, does not preclude some overlap, for the spiritual God did create the physical world. So Galileo would not have excluded 7-day creationism on principle, but on the evidence. Neither would Aquinas have excluded on principle the ID position that evidence of God’s work might appear in the physical world - but he would have said that the absence of such evidence has no bearing on the reality of God’s involvement.
There seems much potential for reconciliation of difference here - at the price of challenging a philosophical position that has become an assumption of the Western worldview.
August 16th 2011
I wonder if Noll ever broaches the topic of utilitarian obsession that has plagued the western mind too. Everything is dug into to find the hidden use, why it must be this way or that, why something must be done.
Reply to this commentTo me, sometimes the greatest things are just to be able to whistle, twiddle my thumbs and kick pebbles.
Also I think the arguments of Aquinas and Scotus on reference to YHWH seems to try and scholaticize the fact He is being, being subject to rules of being or being the greatest being of them all. Perhaps simply He is.
August 16th 2011
Mark,
Thank you for the analysis of western dualism. I do not think that western dualism is the problem, except that it has fallen apart. Dualism is a problem because it is by nature unstable, two elements coexisting, but no really coming together to make a whole.
Dualism is constantly challenged by monism which offers a simple solution to reality. Darwinism offered the idea that evolution could be explained without a metaphysical “skyhook.” Einstein’s Theory indicates that absolutes so not exist in nature, and if nature reveals the Who God is, then God is not absolute. The Bible tells us that God is not absolute, but traditional philosophy and theology claim God is absolute. In this way postmodern relativism supports monistic naturalism.
Darwin and Einstein attack the supernatural side of western dualism, leaving only the natural side. The problem is that life is not about “being,” life is about Meaning. Meaning does not exist in nature per se. Meaning exists in created things as Monod clearly says. Because of this Monod rejects the concept that life has meaning, because it goes against his belief that the universe was not created. Christians need to voice the opposite understanding because the universe shows clear indications that it was created by God, that is it is rational, meaningful, and good.
Western dualism has outlived its purpose. The West needs a new world view which does justice to reality which is both complex and one. The old is dead, it is our task to discover the new.
Reply to this commentAugust 17th 2011
Roger,
Reply to this commentI must object to some of your claims because they are inaccurate or because I find them to be questionable. I think that will be useful in helping to move this discussion forward.
First, your statement that Einstein’s relativity theory indicates that absolutes do not exist in nature is incorrect. Einstein’s theory only says that there is no absolute frame of reference, which basically means that time and space are not absolute. But while time and space are not absolute, what is absolute is the speed of light, which nothing is capable of exceeding. So, we trade in the absoluteness of time and space for the absoluteness of the speed of light.
Second, I question your assertion that the Bible tells us that God is not absolute. I have not seen anything that indicates as such. Would you please point out where in the Bible do you find verses that support this claim?
Third, I think that meaning exists when something that can properly serve as the final standard of meaning confers some meaning on whatever. I think that meaning doesn’t have to exist in created things, because if some created thing was not conferred any meaning by that ultimate standard then it does not have meaning, period. I don’t know if there is anything that truly does not have meaning (even rocks may mean something in the greatness of God’s plan), but at least the logical possibility exists. Also, since as Christians we would believe that God is the ultimate standard of meaning then God must obviously have meaning in and of Himself.
This kind of goes back to the whole issue of the primacy of existence vs the primacy of consciousness. I believe in the primacy of existence, but I qualify that primary non-contingent existence (God) by the fact that He has higher-order consciousness that is truly capable of fully defining meaning. Maybe that previous sentence didn’t really make much sense, but it is hard for me to express this notion any other way. I think the difficulty of fully answering this question stems fundamentally from our limited capabilities of reasoning (and consequently, of accessing higher-order meaning) as members of creation.
So, I am not quite sure how this discussion of absolutes necessarily relates to the existence of meaning. Naturalism holds that there is no final meaning, but it still holds in the existence of absolutes, since nature would be that absolute. It’s just that the absolute of naturalism include meaning as a component, at least not in the way humans would understand that term. Our goal as Christians, then, is to try to demonstrate that meaning is an integral component of the absoluteness of existence, that the order and rationality that we superficially see is a product of higher order and rationality, one so great that it transcends our own. Furthermore, I think that a correct philosophical interpretation of science will be crucial towards helping us achieve that objective (e.g. intelligibility of the universe).
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 17th 2011
Sorry typo, I meant to say,
Reply to this comment“It’s just that the absolute of naturalism does not include meaning as a
component, at least not in the way humans would understand that term.”
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 18th 2011
Open Circle,
Thank you for your perceptive comments. I have been waiting for someone to question me on the issue of absolutes. You are right in saying that the speed of light is an absolute IF one thinks as an absolute as a constant. This is why those who think that Einstein’s theory supports relativism are mistaken.
However the philosophical, cosmological aspect of an absolute is that it is not relational. The prefix of the word absolute “ab” means “without” and the root “lute” comes from “latus,” the same root as found in relational. The Greek philosophers built their system on the idea that perfect Being was simple and independent of all else and therefore did not interact with the universe. Constancy was based on the idea of simplicity and not being related or entangled with the world.
Therefore, the speed of light is a constant, but not an absolute, because it is relational be3cause it nis measured relationally as miles per second or light years. E = mc2 is also a constant, but is clearly not an absolute because it is relational. This theory reveals that the constants of this world are not physical, which is what humans are prone to believe and the basis of materialism, but relationships which are the basis of theology.
When the Bible says that God is Love, it means that God is Relational and not Absolute. Even the passage found in James 1:17 NRSV “Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change,” indicates the unchanging love of God. The Hebrew word AMEN means Truth based on God’s faithfulness and not God’s absolute “Being.”
The physical is related and relational, but relationships are not material or physical. This is where materialism and naturalism breaks down. Naturalism, meaning that universe is only physical, cannot account for the relational character of the universe. By rejecting the relational character of the universe because they cannot explain it or because it does not fit into the traditional definition of being, those who maintain a monistic physicalist view of the universe have stripped life of its purpose and meaning and reality.
Open Circle, I think that we are talking about the same thing, from two different approaches. My view is that philosophy based on Being is defunct for the reasons described above. You want to save it using constants as absolutes, which is okay if you insist on the relational character of reality, which by my understanding of philosophy goes against all traditional understanding of the nature of being.
Reply to this commentAugust 18th 2011
Roger, the use of etymology to define the meaning of words is nearly always fallacious. Heaven knows I’ve heard enough fanciful reconstructions from preachers over the years.
Reply to this commentIs it really relevant that the original meaning of “nice” was “ignorant”, when it now means ... well, nice. Can one draw anything of significance that pineapples are not apples and don’t grow on pine trees?
In this case, Latin “ab” means “from”, not “without” (which would be “an-”) and was probably just used as an intensive prefix for “solutus” (not “latus”), past participle of the verb “solvo” and meaning unbound, free or independent. The intensification with “ab” makes the meaning unconditional or (more relevantly) complete or perfect. I imagine the underlying thought is of being free of needs.
That does not remove God, as an absolute being, from the ability to relate - rather it makes his relationship, like all his other attributes, free and unconstrained. He loves because he is free to love, not because he is lacking and needs love in return. That seems pretty consistent with the whole Biblical picture of the God who freely loves those who are his enemies, and the Son who did not think equality with his Father something to be grasped. This is the God who supplies all our needs and yet “has no need for a bull from our store”.
However, the Universe cannot be absolute because it depends moment by moment on God - even the speed of light. It is not perfect firetly because of its need for God, and also because God says it will pass away and be replaced - and what is perfect does not perish.
August 18th 2011
Jon,
Thank you for the explanation of the meaning of absolute.
The fact is that the Greek philosophy saw relationships as limits or boundaries on people and God. Islam rejects a covenantal faith because it claims that a covenantal relationship puts limits on God’s freedom.
If God does not need to care for us and God doesn’t, why did God sent Jesus the Messiah and Logos into our world to be born, live, die, and rise from the dead for the sake of humanity? The answer is because God chose and wants to do so, not because God had to do so. This is why we can say God cares and is relational, not absolute and aloof, which is the Greek philosophical ideal.
It is still true that time and space were seen to be absolute because they were independent of observers and independent of each other, so they were seen as non-relational. Now we see that all things are relational and interdependent. Power, knowledge, and love are based on right relationships not being independent of God and others.
Jesus characterized the “absolute” rulers of the pagan world as lording over the people, while He was the Servant or Slave of all. Here again Jesus opposed the absolute of the Greeks to the relationality of God.
Barth tried to make God the Father Absolute by making divine relating go only one way and through Jesus, God with us, however if Jesus is the exact image of the Father that does not work. Love must be mutual if it is to be effective, although we cannot love God until we allow the Holy Spirit into our lives.
Reply to this commentAugust 19th 2011
Roger (and Jon),
Reply to this commentInteresting discussion. Before I begin my response, I must ask that you be patient with me as I have little formal training in philosophy and no training in theology, as I am currently an undergraduate and my training is in molecular biology, even though I am very interested in these science-and-faith issues.
So, starting from the beginning, I think that “constancy” would be an appropriate synonym for my definition of “absolute.” Another way to put this is that when I say that something is absolute, I mean that within the domain to which this entity applies, there are no equally acceptable alternatives that also apply. This gives the entity an inherent privilege, because it is capable of uniquely (and in some sense, authoritatively) occupying its position in the “structure” of reality, as its very validity logically implies the invalidity of all other alternatives.
Now, taking a look at your definition of “absolute,” it is an interesting definition, but to be honest I am rather confused as to why it is useful or relevant. The notion of independent, non-relational existence is an intruiging one, but it makes little sense to me as to why such a requirement should be imposed or that we should - as Greeks did - base our idea of constancy on non-entanglement. To be honest, this notion strikes me as an idealistic abstraction, laden with an unjustified assumption. (By any chance did this notion come from Plato? It sounds like something he would come up with.)
I think science provides a good way to think about this why the requirement of no relationships is unnecessary for something to be considered “absolute.” Science is usually thought of as “hierarchal” in nature, in which certain fields of science can be considered to be derivable from other, more fundamental fields of science. Chemistry can be thought of as a “subset” of physics, biology a “subset” of chemistry, and medicine a subset of biology. One would not say that physics is not absolute within its domain simply because we can derive chemistry and biology from it.
Analogously, I think that we can think of God as being at the very top of the “hierarchy of reality”, and consider all things to be “derived” from Him (i.e., John 1:1-3). I recognize that this analogy is not perfect, because creation is “derived” from God by His act of creation while chemistry is derived from physics not by “creation” but rather as a subset of phenomena. In addition, God’s relationship with humans isn’t just as Creator but also as Savior, so again the analogy is far from perfect. That said, I still think that the general notion stands as a useful model of how we might think about God’s relational capacities not negatively impacting His sovereignty or His absoluteness.
A good illustration of what I mean is this image (http://tinyurl.com/3vfbk2b). I ask that you ignore the precise labels for now because I personally disagree with some of them - e.g., evolution is derived from biology, not vice versa, and computer science is as much a product of mathematics as it is of electrical engineering. But you can clearly see in some sense how much of physics “reigns” over other fields which because of its much more fundamental nature, despite it being able to relate to its subsidiary fields in some manner. (As a biologist this really hurts my ego when a physicist friend comes along and says that his field is superior, because in some sense it is very much true, but that is another story.) In a similar way do I think that God “reigns” and is absolute with respect to all of creation because of His non-contingent, fundamental nature, despite the fact that He can relate to the rest of creation like ourselves.
My second question relates to your claim that entities capable of relations are not physical. That makes very little sense to me and in fact seems to be incorrect. Relationships happen all over the physical world, yet there are many physical entities that occupy unique positions in nature. So I would ask you to please explain why you think that “relationships are not material or physical.”
So in summary, I disagree with the ancient Greeks that relationships puts limits or boundaries on God. As Jon said, God has chosen to relate to us, but He is most definitely not dependent on it. If this is at all a prevalent implicit assumption in Western thinking (which does not appear to be the case at least based on my own experiences), I would suggest that we discard it as quickly as possible since in my opinion it makes no sense. It will probably very useful to the science-and-Christianity discussion in the long run.
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 20th 2011
Open Circle, I find your analysis very perceptive, and pretty much agree with it as an understanding of why a genuine absolute can still be in genuine relationship.
Reply to this commentA couple of points tangential (I think) to yours. Firstly, I don’t think either of the views presented in the OP militate against a relational view of God. In the univocity view, your diagram applies. In the Thomist view God is ontologically distinct from creation, and therefore outside your diagram altogether, yet relates to us voluntarily by anological means.
My other point relates to your heirarchical picture of the sciences (aka the structure of the Universe). I’ve been struck recently by how God’s teleology cuts across our usual scientific understanding. You can view physics as primary because it is more fundamental than biology or sociology. But if life or human relationships are actually God’s purpose, than they are “higher” than physics, which is merely the means used to get to them. Which is superior - the alphabet, or the Bible or Shakespeare that derive from it?
Where does God fit into your diagram (and maybe this tangentially relates to Roger, too)? First, because God is not part of the Universe, you draw a boundary round your diagram. Then at the top, is God as the genuine Absolute and First Cause. Then below “sociology” you’d maybe put “communion with God”, by which means the whole of creation comes from God and returns to God. Once that is understood (sit and count to infinity first…) it’s quite hard to draw a heirarchy - except that God remains uniquely God and the source and destination of all.
August 23rd 2011
Roger and Jon,
Reply to this commentApologies for the delayed reply, I was a bit busy with some other things.
So, to start with Jon’s post, I think that univocity seems a rather fanciful and at the end of the day a presumptuous (whether intended or not) notion. While it is true that we exist just as God does, God’s existence as creator, sustainer, and savior is so far above our own that I find it absolutely implausible that we could really understand His actions significantly beyond what has been revealed to us. I think that Scotus’s view significantly diminishes the glory and sovereignty of God by (in some sense) anthropomorphizing Him.
So, the hierarchy that I provided in my last post would only apply in the analogous sense. (By the way, the question mark at the very top of the hierarchy denotes what is called in physics as the Theory of Everything which of course is not yet known.) If we were to further extend the hierarchy, God would be located even higher than this putative Theory of Everything, relating to the rest of creation in some analogous manner.
I’m not convinced that either life (by whatever definition of it you choose) or human relationships are among God’s primary purposes. In my opinion, God’s ultimate “purpose” is simply to glorify Himself, because to do so otherwise would detract from His sovereignty and glory. This sounds narcissitic from a human perspective, but I think that’s only because we are humans, and our purpose is to glorify God, not ourselves. (I think this is also more consistent with the Thomist position.) Now, I’m sure that human life and human relationships are means by which God can and does glorify Himself, but certainly not the exclusive or primary ones. Your alphabet analogy is an interesting one. In any case, I probably shouldn’t have brought physics envy up, because that is largely because models in biology are often less rigorous and precise than ones in physics, and biologists are less capable of generating abstractions than physicists are.
Regarding relations, a hierarchal model should not preclude things “lower down” from relating to things that are “higher up.” Hierarchy does not necessarily imply stasis. How “high up” the chain something is just indicates its derivativeness, and would not necessarily mean that it is “more important” or is unable to relate to that which is less derivative. It seems like Roger had similar issues, for which I apologize. It’s less of a pecking order than a depiction of ontology and secondary causes, if you will. I like the notion of the drawing “communion with God” below sociology.
(Post continued below Roger’s posts.)
-Open Circle
August 19th 2011
Open Circle,
Thank you for your comments and your honesty about where you are coming from.
Let me begin with the Greeks. As I see it, the Greeks were looking for stability. This is understandable when we see that they were trying to make sense of an unstable, mysterious world. Actually they put ideas at the top of their pyramid of values, they sought stability in understanding and ideas. Christians put God and the spiritual at the top of their values, while science as your chart indicates put the physical at the top of its values.
When modern science was developing and coming into its own during the Enlightenment it felt that it had to oppose both philosophy and theology to establish its methodology based on experimentation. This is the primary cause of the conflict between science and religion which is based on tension caused by different approaches to understanding Reality and value systems. Of course these different approaches should be seen as complementary but fundamentalists on both sides refuse this alternative. When the Western Church adopted Aristotle as the basis of its philosophy, this put the Church on the side of philosophy.
The Greeks saw independence as the ideal state. This is perhaps best illustrated by the “masculine” ideal of the strong silent Man who is distant and in control of his feelings, as opposed the female ideal which are more social and emotional. Relationships do limit independence. A married person has to take into consideration the needs of his wife and family as well as him/herself and others. On the other hand it should be remembered that philosophy was a rebellion against Greek religion which was so anthropomorphic that they want the other way to emphasize Being which is impersonal. Again the goal seems to be to find stability and permanence which led to the concept of the Absolute, which was completely divorced from the ways the world, such as the Deistic God that even Dawkins can accept.
Now you confess that you are embarrassed that your discipline is lower on the totem pole than physics. It is my view that there is no real hierarchy of sciences or anything else. This is influenced by the Trinity where God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all equally God, even though they are not the same or identical. Even though we often refer to the Father as God and the Others as Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, this is not correct. All three are equal and properly called God. We can thank Augustine for this understanding of the Trinity. This means that the triangle representing the Trinity which usually has the Father at the top is not wrong, but can just as properly have the Spirit or the Son at the top. Each form or having a flat top is proper and true.
In truth I would turn the chart you presented upside down and have the human sciences at the top, then the life sciences, and then physical sciences. Look at it this way and see if it does not change your understanding of the purpose of science as well as your self-image as a scientist. In fact I see three separate aspects or dimensions of reality and meaning, the physical, based on the physical sciences, the intellectual or ideational, based on philosophy of how we understand how the world works, and the spiritual or the Meaning and purpose of it all.
Reply to this commentAugust 19th 2011
P 2
Reply to this commentI apologize for the length of my response, but these topics do not lend themselves to Twitter. Now let me summarize. The Greeks were not concerned about science, they were concerned about stability and ideas. Just because we do not look at the universe with the same eyes as they did we cannot just dismiss these ideas, because they govern our lives more than we think. Even though we like to think that we have gone beyond the mind-body dualism (which is a compromise between idealism and science) that we inherited from the Greeks it is very much with us and we will not solve our faith-science conflict until we find a new basis the 21st century understanding of reality. /SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>/SPAN>
August 20th 2011
Sorry Roger - I posted under Open Circle assuming it would appear after your posts. He should read yours first!
Reply to this commentAugust 20th 2011
Open Circle,
You have hit on a very important point which needs to be carefully examined and explored.
You talk about the hierarchy of science. Hierarchy is okay, but hierarchy by itself, like Being, is static. What we need is a dynamic structure, since we live in a dynamic universe. Purpose, unlike hierarchy, provides a dynamic structure for life and thus gives it real meaning.
In your chart power and influence went only one way from top down. This is not relational which goes both ways. The earth’s gravity influences its moon, but the moon’s gravity effects the earth also. Relationships are dynamic because they are interdependent influences which change both parties. God’s love for humanity caused God to create the universe as our home, and to send Jesus the Messiah to live and die for our salvation.
Let me go back to the triangular model for a minute. Put Substance (physical, science) at one apex, put Structure (laws, ideas) at another, and put Purpose (meaning, spiritual, Telos) at the last. All three inform and shape the whole. All three create a complex/one Creation which is both unified and diverse, which is not monistic, or dualistic, but triune.
God the Father is the Creator and Source of the substance of the universe. God the Son, Jesus Christ is the LOGOS, which provides the rational structure of the universe including the biosphere and the human world. God the Holy Spirit is the Telos or Purpose and Meaning of the Universe, which is Love or sharing.
Reply to this commentAugust 23rd 2011
(Post continued from below Jon’s posts.)
Reply to this commentMoving to Roger’s posts, some of the points that I have made in response to Jon’s post would apply to your posts, such as my clarification that this hierarchy model is more a map of secondary causes than an illustration of pecking order. Again, I am not convinced that the more human-relevant sciences are necessarily the ones that are always the most important (in which importance is defined as glorifying of God), but they’re not necessarily less important either.
I agree with you that we don’t really have a good metaphysical understanding of reality that can take into account all aspects of it - how things work, how they come to exist and what they mean. I also agree that we haven’t really solved the mind-body duality problem but perhaps have largely handwaved it away. I do think that the Greeks were perhaps slightly misguided in their understandable search for stability to limit stability-providing entities to that which is non-relational. While humans may be constrained by their relationship with others (your example of a married man), in my opinion that has much more to do with the limitations of man than the necessary character of relationships. As creator, God’s relationship of humanity not only takes into account the needs of man, but also glorifies Himself as merciful and caring. In other words, I think that the claim that relationships limit individuals only applies to human beings because we are of finite ability, with finite resources, of sinful nature, and of contingent existence. None of these properties applies to God, so that is why I think that His relations with humanity would be quite different from our relationships with each other.
Regarding stability, I think that while ultimate stability rests with God, the universe as His creation also reflects considerable stability in and of itself. One of the enabling factors of science is the constancy of nature, without which it would be impossible to infer natural laws and predict what happens tomorrow based on the events of today. And yet, while physical laws are constant, they are also capable of interacting with each other to produce more complex, higher-level phenomena. So again, I recognize the difficulties in thinking about this issue, but I do believe that the Greeks made an unwarranted mental leap in precluding relational entities from also exhibiting stability.
Regarding relationships forcing parties to be subject to change-inducing influence, I am not sure that is necessarily true. The moon may influence the Earth, but that is because they are equivalent-class entities existing within the same physical universe. In other words, they’re both made of matter, and since they both belong to the same universe they are under the same law (that of gravity) and thus the moon can influence the Earth and vice versa. However, God is not under the same law as humans - far from it, as God is the ultimate definer of the law. Thus, to say that Him having a relationship changes His behavior from what it otherwise “would have been” is not true, because reality as it is now is what it “would have been” all along. Since it is apparently in God’s nature to create beings in His image and to relate to them, then creating the universe as our home and sending Christ as Messiah to live and die for us was the plan all along. Nothing has changed of God because of our relationship with Him, because He defined and set into being that relationship in the first place.
Perhaps it is much easier for us to claim to ascribe to Thomistic analogy than to actually apply the principle to our thinking on a regular basis. I think that we tend to implicitly anthropomorphize God too much, and that is the source of perhaps a lot of our misunderstandings.
It’s been a fun discussion. Do you want to continue this on part 3 of Mark’s article since it has already been posted?
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 23rd 2011
Open Circle wrote:
SPAN style=“FONT-FAMILY: ‘Calibri’,‘sans-serif’; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin”>However, God is not under the same law as humans - far from it, as God is the ultimate definer of the law. Thus, to say that Him having a relationship changes His behavior from what it otherwise “would have been” is not true, because reality as it is now is what it “would have been” all along. Since it is apparently in God’s nature to create beings in His image and to relate to them, then creating the universe as our home and sending Christ as Messiah to live and die for us was the plan all along.
The problem is that being Absolute is being above the Law. The thing is that God’s is God’s Law so God is not above the Law. Biblical Law is based on a covenantal agreement, which means that both God (YHWH) and God’s people agree to abide by it, so God is constrained by God’s Law, by God’s relationship to God’s people, by God’s faithfulness to God’s Word.
It is not apparent that it is in God’s nature to do anything. God is not constrained or bound by God’s nature or anything else. God is YHWH, I AM WHO I AM, I DO WHATEVER I CHOOSE TO DO. If YHWH is constrained by anything it is only by God’s character, which is relational, which is Love.
Do not confuse YHWH’s ultimate purpose and character with the way God carries out that purpose. God works with humans so that we might be saved. God does not act alone. The plan in general was there from the start. The specifics had to be worked out in history and in this way God is relational and not Absolute and above God’s covenantal Law.
Reply to this commentAugust 24th 2011
Hmm, I wonder if at this point the discussion is more about semantics than about content, but here is my brief take:
Reply to this commentIt is true that God’s relationship with His people is covenantal, but who defined the notions of law, of covenant in the first place? I think ultimately that definition rests with God. The very notions of covenant and law aren’t just some independent structures that sit up there, untouchable, but they are concepts and ideas that are defined by God that He has, through the course of creation, caused us to also find to be a reasonable standard. By applying the notion of God’s sovereignty to the existence of these very fundamental concepts - indeed to logic itself (e.g. Christ as the Logos), I think it can be more readily seen that God’s relational character does not impede His absoluteness, because the very notion of a relationship itself (and the rules and guidelines that it stipulates) is defined by Him.
It’s a weird concept, but in my opinion it must ultimately hold true in order to fully support the notion of God’s sovereignty. I think what you are doing is divorcing intellectual notions from God. But ultimately, even these fundamental intellectual notions cannot be divorced from God (even though we may think about it that way on a day-to-day basis) because that would mean that certain things (or ideas, in the case) exist independently of God, but that would conflict with the notion that God is the ultimate non-contingent existence.
While I agree that there is no direct or explicit mention of God’s overall purpose, I think that it should be valid to infer that God’s purpose is simply to glorify Himself, just from a pure logical standpoint. If God does not do everything to glorify Himself, then simply put He would not be God, because then there would be a higher priority that He would have to submit to in at least one instance. This is a very general statement so it doesn’t actually state all that much beyond the obvious, and I believe that it is compatible with His identity as YHWH, because whatever God wants to do glorifies God by definition (because He also sets the ultimate standard for what glorifies Him), including being relational and exemplifying love.
It is true that in the covenantal relationship we as humans are also playing a role, but it is God who foreknew and ordained our actions and our wills, and foreknew and ordained the progression of history right from the start. So not only did God know the covenantal law that would be put in place and its contents, but also that we as humans would consent to it (and that He would also follow this plan as well).
I agree that this is all very tautological, but I think this is the view that makes the most sense out of and fully applies God’s sovereignty. It may be useful for you to know that I lean towards Reformed views which does make resolving a lot of these questions rather easier.
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 24th 2011
Open Circle,
I must strongly disagree with you.
God’s purpose is not to glorify Godself. That would indicate that God needs our praise. God does not. God wants us to praise God because God is worthy and deserving of praise, not because God needs it or it pleases God. This modern notion is dead wrong. God is not Self centered.
God loves humans because God loves them, not because it brings God glory. In fact if the main objective of God was to receive praise, then God made a big mistake in creating people who are much more likely not to praise and give God the glory, than to be self-satisfied in their own achievements. Thus if the goal of God’s sovereignty is to receive praise, God is not really sovereign.
Reply to this commentAugust 25th 2011
Roger,
Reply to this commentI think you might have slightly misunderstood my meaning when I use the term “glory.” By “glory,” I don’t necessarily mean praise from creation, even though praise may be one means by which God is glorified. In fact, I don’t really know exactly what glory entails, other than all that has happened and is happening and will happen must by definition glorify God. All I mean by glorifying God is that it advances the purposes of God whatever they might be, in whatever manner He deems most appropriate. When God is not glorified, that just mean that something has happened in which the causes of God were not advanced, or they were not done so in the manner that God thinks to be most appropriate - which of course never happens.
As I mentioned earlier, whatever God wants to do by definition glorifies Him - the two descriptions are logically equivalent. It is not glory in the human sense - this notion of glory is “generated” by God simply because He is God, and this is how we as creation would view Him - as glorious and soverign. I only use the term “glory” because that is what we should keep in mind when view reality, especially when things happen that don’t make sense to us - that we can still recognize God’s sovereignty and praise Him for it. As I said before, it is a very tautological definition.
I am sorry for being unclear and for introducing unnecessary terminology - it seems to have only set back the discussion rather than advance it.
(By the way I am not quite sure what you mean when you say that Reformed views are “modern notions.” By “Reformed,” I just mean Calvinist, which has been around for quite a while.)
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 25th 2011
Open Circle wrote:
SPAN style=“mso-ansi-language: EN” lang=EN>All I mean by glorifying God is that it advances the purposes of God whatever they might be, in whatever manner He deems most appropriate. SPAN style=“FONT-FAMILY: ‘Calibri’,‘sans-serif’; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin” lang=EN> SPAN style=“FONT-FAMILY: ‘Calibri’,‘sans-serif’; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin”>
Jesus made it very clear the best way to advance the purposes of God when He told us to “Love YHWH our God with all our heart, all our mind, all our soul, and with all our strength and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.”
Thus it seems that loving God and others is being in the Will of God. I do not see how this makes glorification God’s first priority or how glorification adds to our understanding of serving God. This seems to me an important theological point for Calvin, but I don’t agree.
I have noted a modern movement which seems to simplify Christianity to praise and worship, while is not completely off base is not the best understanding of our faith. Love also can be distorted and misunderstood, but with Jesus as our Model and Example, I think we are on sounder ground that glorification.
Reply to this commentAugust 26th 2011
Roger,
So here goes:
Reply to this commentI think the conversation has now completely turned into semantics because I basically agree with the content of your post but we are just using different terminology so it only gives the appearance that we are disagreeing, when the problem is actually that we’re just talking past each other due to different vocabularies. I will attempt to clarify my meaning in this final response but hopefully we can wrap this thread up and pursue more meaningful avenues of discussion.
I absolutely agree with you that to love God and to love our neighbors is the best way to advance the purposes of God. So all that I am saying is that whenever we love God and our neighbors, God is glorified. That’s all. I’m just saying that God must by definition be glorified in everything that happens because that would emphasize His sovereignty. It’s purely an intellectual point, and I freely concede that it doesn’t really have much practical use in terms of adding to our understanding of serving God. It’s simply a way to think about who God is and what He does, and give voice and respect to His purposes, which we cannot truly and fully understand. God’s glory is not necessarily accompanied by overt displays of splendor or majesty or sovereignty or greatness. He is glorious simply because of who He is, and when I use the phrase “glory,” I am merely trying to verbally acknowledge that God is the ultimate non-contingent existence. When God loves, He is glorified. When Christ came to earth and was humbled, He was glorified. When Christ suffered and died for us, he was glorified, just as when He was resurrected. It is just a means by which humans can think about and approach who God is, nothing more.
I agree with you that Christianity is not just praise and worship, even though that is a critical component. Again, “glory” here is not necessarily synonymous with overt splendor or majesty, it is not meant to be selfish, but only a recognition of God’s perfection. And I agree with you that love is the key principle. Whenever we love, God is glorified, just as He is glorified by His love for us.
Cheers,
-Open Circle
August 26th 2011
Open Circle,
I appreciate your point of view, but I don’t agree. Now we are talking about the same thing, the Christian faith so you are right, our disagreement is in part semantic, but since Jesus is the Word, Logos by which we understand God and Reality, words-logoi are important because they are the way we conceive God and Reality.
I am not of the Reformed tradition. I have read some Calvin and disagree with him. That is okay because we are not saved by theology, but by faith, however theology is important and I am glad that you are interested in it. As I have said before we need to go beyond traditional theology to meet the needs of our millennium.
My concern is the emphasis on sovereignty of God. While God is sovereign, for me what God does with this power is more important than God has it. See my dialogue with Jon on this point on the Was Humanity Inevitable? Blog. Sovereignty as used by Calvin makes YHWH Absolute and non-relational.
While all that Christians say and do should be to the glory of God, I find this secondary to Love. To make it primary or seem primary is confusing and leads to misunderstanding as I have indicated.
Reply to this commentSeptember 1st 2011
“Sovereignty as used by Calvin makes YHWH Absolute and non-relational.”
Reply to this commentRoger, I don’t know which bit of Calvin you read, but it obviously wasn’t enough.
September 3rd 2011
The Institutes. Maybe you could refer me to something more substantial.
Reply to this comment