Reducing Irreducible Complexity, Part III

January 27, 2010
Category: Video Blogs

Today’s entry is part of our Video Blog series. For similar resources, visit our audio/video section, or our full "Conversations" collection. To embed this video on your own site or blog, please visit our YouTube Channel.

Today's video features Ard Louis. Ard Louis is a Reader in Theoretical Physics and a Royal Society University Research Fellow at the University of Oxford, where he leads a research group studying problems on the border between chemistry, physics and biology. He is also the International Secretary for Christians in Science, an associate of the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion and served on the board of advisors for the John Templeton Foundation.

The commentary that follows was written by Darrel Falk.

I am asked all the time to explain, in a nutshell, why irreducible complexity is not a valid argument in favor of intelligent design. Indeed I have addressed this issue in Part I and Part II of this series. However, I have never heard anyone put it in a more cogent form than Oxford biophysicist Ard Louis in this video. If you are like me though, you’re going to have to listen extremely closely and probably play it two or three times in order to fully grasp the depth of the point he is making. Here is what I think he’s saying. Tell me if I’m right.

Dr. Louis begins by pointing out the complexity of the bacterial flagellum—it consists of many different protein components that must assemble in a specific configuration, a process which takes about twenty minutes. As the components assemble, they might try out many different arrangements until at long last the correct one is identified, producing a fully mature bacterial flagellum.

The problem is that there are a “zillion” different possible combinations and configurations of the components and only one works. Trying them all out and arriving at the single correct one in just twenty minutes would be impossible. Yet, the flagellum assembles. It works. And it works in twenty minutes.

Dr. Louis goes on: If you were to come across a fully assembled flagellum with all of its protein components attached in the one and only way which works, what might you conclude? Remember there are zillions of ways in which those proteins could assemble, but in the search process, only one works. Given the state of our knowledge until recently, you might well conclude that there was a “guiding hand” or a “vital force” that had facilitated the assembly process enabling it to find the correct combination in only minutes. Yet none of us, I assume, believe that there is a guiding hand acting on the cell, causing the proteins inside it to follow the correct search process to make the flagellum. The basic elements of the process are understood, Louis says. They can be explained both mathematically and biologically. We do not need to invoke a guiding hand inside each of the trillions of bacterial cells that are in our body. Their parts, including their flagella, are assembled by processes that we have come to understand over the past half century. No vital force. No guiding hand.

Louis then goes on to explore another aspect of the assembly of the bacterial flagellum: the evolutionary history by which it arose to become the complex structure it is today. That search process took place not in twenty minutes, but over millions of years—probably hundreds of millions. We don’t have the intermediates for this evolutionary history. All we have is the final product. Today, there are people who look at that structure in all of its complexity and say, “There must have been a guiding hand, a vital force to design and build something so complex. Even with hundreds of millions of years of searching in design-space, no natural process could build something this complex.” So, just as some were incredulous that a flagellum could self-assemble in a cell before our current state of knowledge developed, leaders of the Intelligent Design movement are now incredulous in a new way. For what they consider to be scientific reasons, they believe it is nearly certain that the structure must have come fully formed through an intelligence and not have become increasingly more complex through gradual, natural processes.

Louis, a deeply committed Christian, says in essence, “Given our incomplete knowledge about these processes, how do they know that?” True, showing how the flagellum could have been produced by natural processes is a hard problem—we don’t, after all, have the intermediates. However, is it not too early to say that scientists are never going to discover a natural way in which this could come about? Surely we cannot calculate probabilities of this, when we know so little about the process. Is it not premature to come across a finished product and say there must have been a guiding hand when we know so little about the history of its development over hundreds of millions of years?

Again, I emphasize that Dr. Ard Louis is a deeply committed Christian, a person who sees the Bible as the Word of God. He is not arguing against the existence of a Creator. It is science he is discussing, not theology. There are no scientific reasons to say that a guiding hand was needed in evolutionary history to assemble what we now see as a marvelously complex structure. There are also no sound theological reasons to assert that God could not have used natural processes to carry out God’s creation command. God could have used natural processes! We believe that God is Creator of life, that God “spoke” life into existence, and that God’s Presence sustains the created world in its current state.

Think back to Louis’s initial premise about what happens in twenty minutes. There are no scientific or theological reasons to insist on the presence of a guiding hand which manipulates the process so that the proteins attach in all the right ways to build the flagellum of a bacterial cell. By the same token, there are no scientific or theological reasons for assuming that a manipulating hand is needed step by step to build better and better flagella in evolutionary time. Instead, we are simply left with this:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.(John 1:1-3)

That is enough for me.

Commentary written by the BioLogos editorial staff.

Filed Under:
science, religion, evolution, intelligent design, irreducible complexity, design, creation, bacteria, flagellum, Ard Louis, biology

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  1. hmm - #3424

    January 27th 2010

    “Yet none of us, I assume, believe that there is a guiding hand acting on the cell, causing the proteins inside it to follow the correct search process to make the flagellum. ... They can be explained both mathematically and biologically. We do not need to invoke a guiding hand inside each of the trillions of bacterial cells that are in our body. Their parts, including their flagella, are assembled by processes that we have come to understand over the past half century. No vital force. No guiding hand.”

    This is God of the Gaps theology, where there cannot be guiding hand, if something can be explained otherwise. But even thought Darrel Falk claims, that “none of us” believes that there is a guiding hand acting on the cell, for example I believe so. I am not supporter of GoG theology. And I believe that also cell’s actions are guided by God. As Joe Carter says, “The God of Christianity is not a mere “god of the gaps” but is the ever present, always working, Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of all creation.”
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/01/07/does-god-live-in-the-gaps/

    Louis’ theological argument against the Behe’s argument (from Irreducible complexity to design) is bad.

  2. Glen Davidson - #3427

    January 27th 2010

    The trouble with using this sort of reasoning with people inclined to believe in “design” is that almost none of them would ever have believed that a guiding hand assembles the bacterial flagellum.  The idea that physics rules now is not much of a problem, but, put an unknown origin into an unknown past, and suddenly the idea that an inscrutable intelligence put things together for unknown purposes (don’t forget that many pathogenic bacteria utilize flagella to attack us) via unknown means seems much more plausible to the untrained human psyche.

    One has only to look at Behe, who seems to think it unproblematic to believe that P. falciparum evolves without any guiding hand today, yet sees in the past the same sort of dependence upon earlier genes that non-teleological evolution predicts, and seems to think it no problem to say that this devastating pathogen’s existence must be due to intelligence.

    The eukaryotic flagellum was Behe’s favorite in DBB, and of course its own adaptation from other cellular parts is quite obvious.

    The idea that things might have been very different in the past seems to be a very common assumption in the human mind through recorded history.

  3. Darrel Falk - #3428

    January 27th 2010

    Dear hmm,

    If you think that there is a “hand” influencing the assembly of each and every bacterial flagellum, you are holding to a view that deeply conflicts with the science of biology.  Molecular biologists can explain in detail what happens in assembly processes such as this.  They do not need to invoke a non-natural force that directs assembly over those 20 minutes.

    The God of the Bible upholds the natural laws and God’s Spirit pervades the entire universe in ways that are mysterious and beyond our comprehension, but this is different than saying that God’s supernatural intervention is needed to assemble each and every bacterial flagellum.  I’m not sure you really meant to imply that.

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  4. hmm - #3431

    January 27th 2010

    Darrel Falk wrote:

    “f you think that there is a “hand” influencing the assembly of each and every bacterial flagellum, you are holding to a view that deeply conflicts with the science of biology.”

    No, my view dosn’t conflict with the SCIENCE of biology.

    “Molecular biologists can explain in detail what happens in assembly processes such as this.  They do not need to invoke a non-natural force that directs assembly over those 20 minutes.”

    I know that. But “no need to invoke a non-natural force” doesn’t imply that there never was one, except, if one favors God of the Gaps theology (where God goes away, if also “natural” explanation is presented).  As Hearn (professor of biochemistry) said 50 years ago, why pick out only the event that is particularly unexplainable to us personally and say “This was God’s doing!” Why not get in the habit of seeing God’s creative handi work in everything that happens?

    My personal belief is that nothing happens in our world without God.
    (And of course I believe that flagellum is not exception: God is needed also in the case of flagellum)

  5. Glen Davidson - #3432

    January 27th 2010

    I would just add that in some sense the human sense that the past must have been very different has been justified, as the Big Bang is thought by many to stem from conditions that do not exist in the universe today.  It is difficult to see how nothing would have ever been very different at some point, since matter/energy do not just pop into existence today (virtual particles notwithstanding).

    The point is that there is at least some justification for different conditions back far enough, where in a different causal regime different effects occur.  Too many people are too happy to assume that known cause-effect relationships fail with the failure of their own knowledge, or at least with the failure science’s knowledge.  But when we see continuity of the expected cause-effect relationships in evolution, geology, or astronomy in the evidence from the distant past, there is no justified reason to expect that the physics of causation differed back then.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  6. Glen Davidson - #3433

    January 27th 2010

    Continuing from #3432:

    Least of all is there any reason to suppose that some intelligent cause acted in the past without the kinds of forethought that we expect of intelligence today, and thereby produced what we’d expect competitive pressures to make.  From pathogens, to odd structures like the recurrent laryngeal nerve, it is very strange indeed to suppose that thinking processes would have made what we now consider to come from unthinking processes. 

    It’s as if we decided that the Permian extinction must have been done intelligently, since we lack a full explanation for why it occurred.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  7. Glen Davidson - #3435

    January 27th 2010

    Rabbi Natan Slifkin:

    The religious evolutionist sees intelligent design all around him. But the Intelligent Design movement is something else. Generally, ID proponents are claiming that there are certain specific cellular structures which cannot be explained by naturalistic evolutionary processes. It is claimed that the human blood-clotting system, the bacterial flagellum and other such structures exhibit “irreducible complexity” - that no step-by-step natural process could have produced them, and an Intelligent Designer (i.e. God) must have intervened to create them in a single instant.

    WHETHER THIS is “good science” is debated. Many scientists challenge whether such structures do indeed exhibit irreducible complexity. Others suspect that even if science does not currently have a satisfactory naturalistic explanation for how these things came about, it is likely to discover it at some point.

    But there are also significant theological problems here. If God’s existence is being demonstrated in phenomena for which there is argued to be no scientific explanation, then what about all those phenomena for which there is a scientific explanation?

    Continued below:

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  8. Glen Davidson - #3436

    January 27th 2010

    Continuing:

    The prophets said that “the Heavens declare the glory of God.” Some of the ancients interpreted this to mean that since (in their time) there was no explanation as to why the planets move in the way that they do, they attest to a Designer. But now that physics and astronomy have explained planetary motion, does this mean that the Heavens no longer declare the glory of God? Of course they do; and the unavoidable position for the religious person is that God’s grandeur is seen in the laws of nature.

    THE PROBLEM with ID was demonstrated by David Klinghoffer’s November 9 Post op-ed “Wayward religious reconcilers.” He argued that for the universe to meaningfully attest to a Creator, it must do so in a way that is potentially scientifically falsifiable, just as the testimony of witnesses is only meaningful if it could theoretically be proven false.

    Continued below:

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  9. Glen Davidson - #3437

    January 27th 2010

    Continuing from #3436:

    ID, claims Klinghoffer, uses certain cellular structures to present evidence for design that, if proven wrong (i.e. if proven to be explicable in terms of ordinary naturalistic processes), would no longer attest to a Creator.

    So where does that leave the rest of the universe? What about all those structures that do not, even by the admission of the ID camp, present irreducible complexity? The unstated implication of their position is that these things do not attest to a Creator. Don’t have a grasp of cellular biology? Sorry, you won’t be able to perceive that the universe was created by God.

    http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/jerusalem-post/mi_8048/is_20061116/problem-intelligent-design/ai_n47361751/
    </blockquote>

    I thought it was an excellent theological argument.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  10. hmm - #3438

    January 27th 2010

    Glen Davidson wrote:

    “One has only to look at Behe, who seems to think it unproblematic to believe that P. falciparum evolves without any guiding hand today, yet sees in the past the same sort of dependence upon earlier genes that non-teleological evolution predicts, and seems to think it no problem to say that this devastating pathogen’s existence must be due to intelligence.”

    As far as I know, Behe has NEVER claimed that ” P. falciparum evolves without ANY guiding hand” today. Behe thinks that God can guide also today. For him the existence of natural explanation doesn’t imply that God was not involved: he personally doesn’t favor God of the Gaps theology. But the arguments are different thing: many seems to think that design is good explanation ONLY IF the other explanations are bad. And that argument from IC to design could be good only if there aren’t any other explanations for IC structures.

    “It’s as if we decided that the Permian extinction must have been done intelligently, since we lack a full explanation for why it occurred.”

    I believe that (also) Permian extinction couldn’t have happened without God. But not because the lack of other explanations.

  11. Glen Davidson - #3439

    January 27th 2010

    As far as I know, Behe has NEVER claimed that ” P. falciparum evolves without ANY guiding hand” today.

    And I quite clearly did not write that he has claimed that.

    He simply based his “edge of evolution” upon his assumption that evolution has no guiding hand today (at least not re P. falciparum, and assumed that evolution must have had a guiding hand in the past, based on a highly inadequate comparison (for just one thing, he didn’t factor in the fact that resistant P. falciparum are selected against in areas where chloroquine is not being used) with the evolution of chloroquine resistance vs. the greater evolutionary changes in the past.

    It would be better to discuss what Behe actually wrote, than to try to pin the issue to direct claims by Behe.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  12. hmm - #3441

    January 27th 2010

    Glen Davidson wrote:

    “And I quite clearly did not write that he has claimed that.”

    OK. Then I understood your sentence “One has only to look at Behe, who seems to think it unproblematic to believe that P. falciparum evolves without any guiding hand today” incorrectly.

    “He simply based his “edge of evolution” upon his assumption that evolution has no guiding hand today”

    As far as I know, Behe himself doesn’t believe that evolution couln’t have guiding hand today, but the problem is that there is no method, how to show it has (if you don’t know the God’s purpose). Maybe that’s why he doesn’t argue that evolution is guided now (but he never claims that it couldn’t be).

    Behe’s strategy is to focus on some examples and claim that there has been design AT LEAST (not just) in some cases during the history of life.

  13. Brian - #3447

    January 27th 2010

    Darrel,

    I’d like to quote one of your statements and suggest a different emphasis: 

    God could have used natural processes!”

    If we grant for the sake of argument that the bactierial flagellum (or any other structure you care to name) is completely explainable by natural processes alone, what scientific reason is there to believe that God is involved?  If you were debating Richard Dawkins on this score, what scientific evidence—if any—would you present to support your assertion?

  14. Gregory Arago - #3449

    January 27th 2010

    Please excuse if an idiot in biology jumps in here. But I just don’t see what the concept ‘BioLogos’ adds in *any* way to this discussion.

    F. Collins writes “The Language of God” & there’s a big controversy that he’s appointed to the NIH b/c he’s an evangelical Christian. O.k., fair enough. Many in the Discovery Institute are ‘evangelical’ Christians too.

    What Darrel means by ‘directed’ is a complete mystery to me. Where & when & how does this ‘direction’ happen?

    Language, to use Collins’ metaphor, is always used ‘by someone’. Does ‘language’ have any relevance in the ‘science’ called ‘biology’? What about ‘information’?

    I’m beginning to think that the ‘science’ of ‘biology’ is much more ‘mysterious’ than many biologists would like people to believe. It is certainly not a ‘unified’ science, simply because of the single concept called ‘evolution,’ which can mean, as Louis himself said, ‘natural history,’ ‘mechanism’ or ‘worldview.’ Computer, field, & theoretical biologists study fundamentally different things. The only thing that appears to unite ‘biology’ is ‘nature’ or ‘naturalism.’

  15. Charlie - #3450

    January 27th 2010

    Biologos believes God created the universe/ laws of physics/ life on Earth, yet claim they do not believe in Intelligent Design.  Can someone tell me how this is different from Intelligent Design?

  16. pds - #3456

    January 27th 2010

    Louis, a deeply committed Christian, says in essence, “Given our incomplete knowledge about these processes, how do they know that?” True, showing how the flagellum could have been produced by natural processes is a hard problem—we don’t, after all, have the intermediates. However, is it not too early to say that scientists are never going to discover a natural way in which this could come about? Surely we cannot calculate probabilities of this, when we know so little about the process. Is it not premature to come across a finished product and say there must have been a guiding hand when we know so little about the history of its development over hundreds of millions of years?

    But most scientists insist that we do know how it happened:  random mutation and natural selection.  You seem to be acknowledging that these processes were most likely not sufficient.

    Why shouldn’t we draw a tentative design inference, especially given all the other evidence of designed fine-tuning in the universe?

  17. Mike Gene - #3458

    January 27th 2010

    Sorry, but this is not an argument against Irreducible Complexity; this is an argument against It’s Too Complex To Have Evolved.  IC basically argues there is a minimal number of parts essential for a particular function. Behe would identify the parts of the flagellum not as the individual proteins, but as the 20-or-so gene products.  He would argue that in a bacterium with flagella, all flagellar gene products are present, so flagellar self-assembly is no mystery to anyone who studies biochemistry and protein-protein interactions.  But when it came to the origin of the flagellum, Behe would argue we need to account for the origin of the twenty different genes, all necessary to construct a flagellum.  Behe would argue that hundreds of millions of years are irrelevant, as the origin of the flagellum entailed some type of quantum leap, where any number less than 20 would not give rise to flagellar function.  I don’t think the IC argument works, but it is best to address it as it is and not some strawman version.

  18. Argon - #3474

    January 27th 2010

    I agree with Mike except I would be a bit more careful about using the term, “IC”. Behe defined it operationally in his first book. Essentially, an IC system is one that is composed of multiple, interacting parts (minimally, two), such that removal or impairment of one part adversely affects the ‘function’ produced by all. Knockout experiments are sufficient, though not exclusive methods of assessing whether a system is IC. By this criteria, there are any number of biological systems and interactions which are IC.

    The problem is that ICness is often conflated with ‘unevolvability’ , both by ID critics and ID supporters—But that’s begging the question. What first must be demonstrated is that IC systems cannot evolve. It appears to me that simpler and more recently emergent IC systems show stronger hallmarks of having evolved from pre-existing components. That is something one might expect from natural drift and divergence.

    My recommendation: If you want to talk about evolvability use “evolvability”, don’t muddy the waters with “Irreducible Complexity”—The two terms are absolutely not interchangeable.

  19. R Hampton - #3476

    January 27th 2010

    Francis Collins at the 2009 Vatican Conference on the flawed purpose of ID:

    Certainly, in many of the fundamentalist very conservative Christian seminaries the notion of intelligent design or even Young Earth Creationism is the accepted norm for how theology is presented to future pastors, very much saying that, if science disagrees with the literal interpretation of Genesis I and II, then science must be wrong and it is the duty of the Christian to resist what is seen as a materialist perspective derived from these insights ... I think this is a disaster for the Protestant Church in the US, because ultimately it will fail.

    One hope would be that sometime in the not too distant future that realisation will begin to sink in and that, by a true and effective dialogue about the facts as opposed to the strong crusading feelings of some, it might be possible to develop a much more effective theology, a theology that celebrates what science is teaching us about the universe as manifestations of God’s awesome creation as opposed to a theology that seems to be afraid of science and defensive about what science is teaching us, as if, somehow, our puny minds, in understanding the universe, could threaten God Almighty.

  20. Mike Gene - #3477

    January 27th 2010

    Hi Argon,

    Your points are excellent.  Yes, IC clearly exists in biology and is the reason why genetics has long been a powerful ally for biochemistry.  But IC does not mean ‘unevolvability.’ If anything, IC helps us to understand how evolution works, where cooption of parts and functional shifts are key. 

    As I explained long ago, here is the basic problem with the “IC = unevolvability” captured in one sentence - Just because function F requires parts A, B, C, and D to exist does not necessarily mean parts A, B, C, and/or D require function F to exist.

  21. Charlie - #3494

    January 28th 2010

    Can anyone see how Biologos can believe that God created the universe/ laws of physics/ life on Earth, yet claim they do not believe in Intelligent Design? How is this not Intelligent Design?

    Can anyone explain this to me?

  22. Syman Stevens - #3497

    January 28th 2010

    @Charlie - #3494:

    Hi Charlie, thanks for your comment.  Yes, BioLogos does believe in an “intelligent designer”, but disagrees with many of the arguments & positions of the “Intelligent Design” movement.  It’s a term equally confusing as “Creationism” –– BioLogos certainly believes in a Creator, but disagrees with “Creationism” when the term refers to 6-day, or Young-Earth, Creationism.  Please see our FAQ on “How is BioLogos Different From ID and YEC”, in the “Questions” tab of this site. —Syman

  23. Argon - #3503

    January 28th 2010

    Mike - “Just because function F requires parts A, B, C, and D to exist does not necessarily mean parts A, B, C, and/or D require function F to exist.”

    Absolutely, and in reference to much of the description about essential functionality in Behe’s first book, just because the organism requires function F in order to survive today doesn’t mean it always did. For example, with respect to clotting, what are the needs of an ancient, tiny, multicell animal with a low-pressure, open circulatory system compared to humans of today? Answer: Much different. It’s not as if humans popped into existence from no precursors.

    Later versions of “IC” that try to redefine the term based on things like the number of neutral steps required to create the system just exacerbate the ‘begging the question’ problem.

    I think it would be best to scrap IC in ID discussions. At one time, “ICness as a possible indicator of design” might have been an interesting hypothesis but it turned out to be unworkable and clearly wrong in some cases. It’s not useful any longer except perhaps as an indicator that someone who still promotes “IC systems review ID” arguments is out of date on some of their biology.

  24. Argon - #3504

    January 28th 2010

    Argh - “IC systems review ID”

    change to: “IC systems indicate ID”

  25. Gregory Arago - #3511

    January 28th 2010

    Yes, the link between ‘irreducibility’ and ‘intelligence’ is not an easy one to make clear. I wonder how Mike Gene, a non-IDM proponent of ‘design’ and/or ‘telic’ thinking in biology reconciles this difference. How does ‘irreducibility’ connect with ‘intelligence’?

    Nevertheless, the issue of ‘irreducibility’ is here to stay.

    S. Wolfram writes:
    “For if the evolution of a system corresponds to an irreducible computation then this means that the only way to work out how the system will behave is essentially to perform this computation.” (A New Kind of Science, 2002)

    The philosophy of ‘irreducibility’ is also important here. One cannot reduce ethics to biology (cf. evolutionary psychology). One cannot reduce mathematics to anthropology (cf. ethnic science). So much reductionism occurs in ‘modern science.’ How can we remedy this?

  26. Charlie - #3524

    January 28th 2010

    Syman,

    Is your belief in a creator based solely on faith then (excluding science justifying this belief)?

  27. Mike Gene - #3525

    January 28th 2010

    Gregory,

    Here is how I connect them.  Irreducible complexity points to the crucial role of cooption and functional shifts in evolution.  Cooption and functional shifts are something we would *expect* from the front-loading of evolution.  Front-loading can be viewed as the intelligent use of chance and natural selection to nudge evolution in order to accomplish design objectives across time.

  28. Gregory Arago - #3599

    January 29th 2010

    Thanks Mike!

    Worth repeating imho:

    “Front-loading can be viewed as the intelligent use of chance and natural selection to nudge evolution in order to accomplish design objectives across time.”

    Of course, I would prefer if you add the qualifier ‘biological’ since it is clear that you are speaking about ‘biological evolution’ and not about ‘universal evolution.’ You understand well why I note the difference.

    The “different meanings of evolution” argument was verified by Dr. Ard Louis here at BioLogos recently when he explained that ‘evolution’ to many people can mean ‘worldview.’ By adding the qualifying adjective ‘biological’ in front of ‘evolution,’ one avoids that possibility. That said, probably everyone reading this thread understood already that the topic was ‘biological evolution,’ so the point is almost purely pedantic. wink

  29. Peter - #7185

    March 19th 2010

    Blogger wrote, “The basic elements of the process are understood, Louis says. They can be explained both mathematically and biologically. We do not need to invoke a guiding hand inside each of the trillions of bacterial cells that are in our body.”

    Response: Since the activity in Louis’ brain can be explained mathematically and biologically, and since his body language in the video can be explained mathematically and biologically, does this mean no intelligence guided the process?

    In the video he mentions that proteins self-organize.  Since proteins don’t have a mind of their own, they have no self.  Thus, they cannot self-organize.  Claiming that molecules self-organize is an Of-the-gaps explanation.  They don’t know what moves them to organize in a particular way so they throw up their arms and claim it happens all by itself.  The problem with this view is that if proteins can self-organize so readily, then it is more logical to infer that they self-organize everyday.  This would mean that life would be originating from non-life more often than scientists believe.

  30. Peter - #7187

    March 19th 2010

    Blogger stated, “For what they consider to be scientific reasons, they believe it is nearly certain that the structure must have come fully formed through an intelligence and not have become increasingly more complex through gradual, natural processes.”

    ID supporters do not make the claim that anything intelligently designed does not involve a natural process.  Rather, ID supporters claim that life cannot be explained solely by reference to non-intelligent processes.

    Blogger went on to ask, “Given our incomplete knowledge about these processes, how do they know that?”

    Answer: Given incomplete knowledge, how does Louis know that proteins are organizing themselves?  How does Louis know that an intelligently driven process never involves natural objects?

    Blogger asked, “However, is it not too early to say that scientists are never going to discover a natural way in which this could come about?”

    Answer:  Perhaps someday they will discover how proteins magically take it upon themselves to organize into functional patterns.  But as rationalists we must rely upon evidence currently available to explain, not evidence that might be available in the future.

  31. Andrwe - #8459

    April 3rd 2010

    The flagellum self-assembles because of the information contained within its physical parts (the. It does not create information as it self-assembles; it follows it. We know they self-assemble because we can watch them doing so. Upon doing so, we understand the step-by-step process.

    By contrast, flagella are never seen to evolve. Instead they are seen to devolve to the Type Three Secretory System. After much study, there are still no credible ‘upward’ pathways.

    To carry the analogy of self-assembly to evolution: if evolution did manages to assemble a flagellum, it is because the organism was somehow pre-programmed to. Behe happens to think that it is not programmed to, as there is no evidence for the requisite pathways. But if it was programmed to, ID would again be the natural conclusion.

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