How Should BioLogos Respond to Dr. Albert Mohler’s Critique: Pete’s Response

July 8, 2010
Category: BioLogos Features

How Should BioLogos Respond to Dr. Albert Mohler’s Critique: Pete’s Response

"Science and the Sacred" frequently features essays from The BioLogos Foundation's leaders and Senior Fellows. Today's entry was written by Pete Enns. Pete Enns is Senior Fellow of Biblical Studies for The BioLogos Foundation and author of several books and commentaries, including the popular Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament, which looks at three questions raised by biblical scholars that seem to threaten traditional views of Scripture.

Today's blog follows Darrel Falk's and Karl Giberson's previous posts (here and here) about Albert Mohler's recent critique of the BioLogos Foundation.  Dr. Mohler's speech may be found here. We have produced a transcript of the speech, which can be read here.

Dear Dr. Mohler,

I watched your articulate presentation “Why Does the Universe Look So Old?” and along with Dr. Giberson, I have some questions. For me, those questions concern how you approach biblical interpretation.

Along with Giberson, my main question is why make “a theological mountain out of an exegetical molehill.” Although I disagree with a literal reading of Genesis 1, I have no personal qualms with those who think differently; indeed there are a number of variant readings I am fine with. But you attach great significance to this issue in ways that most Christians do not, and along the way, I think you miss some important aspects of Genesis 1. I, and perhaps others, would appreciate some clarification to help us see where you are coming from.

I focus my questions by citing a small portion of your presentation. The parts that raised questions for me are in bold type.

“I want to invite you to turn with me to Genesis chapter one. We dare not seek to answer this question without first looking to the Word of God.… What we have here in Genesis 1:1 – 2:3 is a sequential pattern of creation, a straightforward plan. A direct reading of the text would indicate to us seven 24-hour days, six 24-hour days of creative activity and a final day of divine rest. This was the untroubled consensus of the Christian church until early in the 19th century. It was not absolutely unanimous. It was not always without controversy. But it was the overwhelming, untroubled consensus of the church, until the dawn of the 19th century.

 

“A direct reading of the text"

You seem to say here that a “direct reading” of Genesis 1:1-2:3 leads naturally to a literal reading. It is not clear to me what you mean by “direct reading.” As you know, there are many places in the Bible where a “direct” reading actually requires a non-literal interpretation. For example, God is spirit and does not have hands or lungs, yet in Genesis 2 God “forms” Adam from the dust (like a potter) and “breathes” into him.

I understand that a literal reading of Genesis 1 is driven by a desire to read Scripture with respect. We have no disagreement on the motive. But I am suggesting that we show the most respect for Scripture by listening closely to what it is saying, how it is said, and how an ancient audience would have understood it.

This is the hard work of biblical interpretation, and once we have done that work we will be in a better position to make some decisions about what is literal (e.g., the cross and resurrection), what is clearly symbolic (e.g., parables), and what is not entirely clear either way and requires more work to think through. Discernment and patience have always been part of a healthy approach to biblical interpretation. It is not an indication of wavering commitment, but precisely the opposite: an indication that the Bible is worthy of such careful attention.

One reason I and others do not accept a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 is that the text itself points us in a symbolic direction. In fact, insisting on “total literalism” can cause big problems for readers of Genesis.

Here are three examples from Genesis 1 and then one related issue from elsewhere in the Old Testament.

  1. Verses 1-2 assume the pre-existence of a watery chaos.1 The spirit of God (v. 2) hovers over this pre-existent “deep” and the first day of creation begins the process where God brings order to this chaos.

    Many faithful Christians understand verses 1-2 this way, and they feel that they are honoring God’s Word by doing so. Lying behind this conviction is the principle of grammatical-historical exegesis, where the historical context of a text frames the kinds of questions one asks of it.

    Taming chaos is not the way modern readers think of creation, but it is one way that ancients thought of it. We know this from other creation texts from the ancient world, one of which you mention in your presentation (the Babylonian creation story Enuma Elish). I feel I am honoring the Bible as God’s Word by learning as much as I can about the ancient context in which Genesis was written. Then I can begin to listen to how Genesis 1 would have been understood by these ancient Israelites, the very people to whom it was written. I do not think I am honoring Scripture by expecting it to reflect modern questions that were simply not on the mind of ancient Israelites.

    It seems to me that you may be expecting Genesis 1 to do something it was not intended to do, namely reflect factual information that would answer the sorts of questions we have today. I, and many others, feel that expecting the Bible to reflect the world in which it was written is the proper way to account for why Genesis 1 looks the way it does.

    It is a big problem not only scientifically but theologically to insist on a literal “watery chaos” that was just “there” when God began creating. Reading Genesis 1 with ancient eyes helps us past this. Do you see a problem with reading the Bible the way I have outlined here? Do you think there is value in allowing the original context in which the Bible was written help guide your interpretation?

  2. A related issue is the “firmament” mentioned in vv. 6-8. This was understood by Israelites and throughout much of Christian history as some sort of solid dome.2 As Genesis 1:7 tells us, the function of the firmament was to hold back the “water above.” Along with the “watery chaos,” this is part of the Bible’s ancient Near Eastern worldview. Indeed, some of the better modern translations of the Bible use the English word “dome” or “vault” here.

    It seems to me that insisting on a literal reading of Genesis 1 would require one to accept that a firmament of some sort holds back a body of water. But here, too, reading Genesis 1 with ancient eyes helps us to see things differently. Picturing the heavens the way we see in Genesis 1 is also reflected in other ancient creation stories. Allowing those extra-biblical texts to help us understand what “firmament” means is not to devalue Scripture or place it “under” non-biblical texts, which seems to be your concern. It is merely information to help us make informed decisions about what to expect from the Bible. It is no different than when the NIV Study Bible provides notes on historical context to help us understand what a passage means to say. Extra-biblical information is not the “authority” but an important partner in interpretation.

    God speaks to his people in ways they are able to understand. He “comes down to their level,” or as John Calvin put it, God “lisps” so that humans can understand. This, it seems to me, is the best way to show respect for Scripture. So, again, what objection do you have to reading Genesis 1 this way? Does it not show respect for God while also avoiding the unnecessary conflict between science and the Bible that a literal reading creates?

  3. A lot of interpreters throughout Christian history have taken Genesis 1 figuratively because of days 1-3. These are called “days” with “evening and morning,” yet the sun was not created until day 4. Many have concluded that a truly “literal” day, with evening and morning, requires a sun, and so these days are not meant to be understood literally.

    I realize you may disagree here, and maybe you have a way of seeing literal days where there is no sun. I disagree strongly but that would not lead me to question your commitment to the Gospel. Reading the days figuratively is not an act of spiritual rebellion, which you seem to suggest. It is a result of taking the text very seriously and faithfully, trying to discern from the text itself how best to read it.

  4. Outside of Genesis 1 there are several passages in the Old Testament where creation involves God defeating a primordial sea monster of some sort: Job 26:12-13; Psalm 74:13-14; 89:10; 104:26; Isaiah 51:9. Do you feel that these passages require the same literal reading as Genesis? Or would you suggest that we should make reasonable distinctions in the Bible about what can be taken literally and when? This seems to be the very thing you are warning us against in your presentation.

    If you are able to argue that these passages should be read figuratively, would you also be willing to hear the same kinds of arguments from your brothers and sisters about Genesis 1?

    The Bible is made up of all sorts of ways of communicating truth, and literalness is one of them and should not be brushed aside. We are not suggesting such a thing. But the Bible also speaks in metaphors and symbols. Often times those metaphors and symbols reflect the worldview of the ancient context of the Bible. I strongly believe that taking all of this into account is more faithful to the Bible than insisting on a literal interpretation.

Many committed Christians, past and present, do not find a literal reading of Genesis 1 persuasive. I hope that at least you would agree that their point of view is worthy of respect, not warning.

"The overwhelming untroubled consensus of the church"

Dr. Mohler, you state that a strictly literal reading of Genesis finds overwhelming support in the history of the church. On one level, I agree with you. Until the rise of modern science, Christian interpreters did not have the options before them that we do today: literal, day-age, framework view, etc., all things you are well aware of. There was more unanimity because there were fewer choices.

But you assume that this diversity is a problem that must be resisted. You seem to expect the church today to maintain vigorously a position on Genesis 1 that was formulated before the evidence for an old earth came to light, as far back as the 17th century (not the 19th century as you say in your presentation). Are you suggesting it is always wrong to adjust how we read portions of the Bible in view of scientific evidence?

Many scholars have noted the similarity between the discussion over the age of the earth and heliocentricity in Galileo’s day. See, for example, Karl Giberson’s recent post. As scientific evidence became clear, it led the church to accept that the biblical geocentric model of the cosmos simply reflected their ancient point of view. This did not lead to an abandonment of the Bible as God’s Word, but only readjusting expectations of what we have the right to find there. I know you accept heliocentricity, but it is not clear to me what your reasoning process is. The biblical authors, along with all ancient peoples, assumed the earth was stationary and that the sun moved. Would that not require us to do likewise?

I would be interested in hearing more about why you wouldn’t feel the same way about a Young Earth as you do about geocentricism. You do not accept the scientific data that points to an actual old earth but only an apparently old earth. But from what I can tell, you don’t argue for a solar system where the sun only appears to be at the center. Why do you allow some scientific evidence to adjust our understanding of the Bible and not others?

I also do not agree with you that before the 17th century there was as much of an “overwhelming untroubled consensus” as you suggest. For example, in the first few centuries of the Christian era we see a lot of very informed discussion about how to handle Genesis 1 (as well as Genesis 2-3).3 I appreciate your qualifier: you acknowledge that there was some diversity on how to handle Genesis. Still, you leave the impression that the history of the church has essentially interpreted Genesis as literally as you do.

But my main concern here is not to point out the church’s diversity on interpreting Genesis 1. Rather, I am concerned that you make it such a matter of orthodoxy. As you know, St. Augustine did not hold to a literal six-day creation, but an instantaneous creation. Oddly enough, this fits much better with the modern notion of a Big Bang, but that was not on his radar screen. He was actually influenced by Greek philosophy, and so his view did not gain a lot of acceptance thereafter. Christians have disagreed with Augustine, but it is hard to find someone who would warn others about him because of his views on Genesis 1. It was not a theological hill to die on.

Also, although you are a Southern Baptist, I know you have great respect for the Reformed tradition. It is true that from Calvin, to the Westminster Assembly, to 19th century Princeton, and the Dutch Reformed tradition, many (not all) Reformed theologians understood the days of Genesis 1 to be “natural” days. But even then, they did not make it a point of Christian orthodoxy, as you seem to do. A present-day example is the Presbyterian Church of America, a denomination you know well. This conservative denomination follows the Reformed tradition in not making the days of creation a matter of orthodoxy but leaving the matter open to individual conscience.

Flexibility of views and generosity of spirit concerning Genesis 1 are hardly unusual among committed Christians. It is not a slippery slope to unbelief but a humble way forward to discern what it means to read God’s Word faithfully. I do not think such flexibility or generosity are a mistake, as you seem to argue. Would you not, along with many thoughtful Christian thinkers of the past, allow diverse points of view to sit side-by-side for the benefit of Christian unity?

Notes

  1. In his excellent commentary on Genesis, John Walton of Wheaton College lays out this entire issue very clearly and accessibly (Genesis [NIVAC, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001), pp. 67-78.
  2. Walton, Genesis, 110-13.
  3. Recently, Greek Orthodox theologian Peter C. Bounteneff has outlined this diversity among the second century apologists, Origen, and the Cappadocians in Beginnings: Ancient Christian Readings of the Biblical Creation Narratives (Baker, 2008).

 

Filed Under:
science, faith, genesis, interpretation, creation, scripture, albert mohler, biologos, young earth creationism, heliocentricity, geocentrism

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  1. Stephen Mook - #20945

    July 8th 2010

    Amen…

    1 Peter 1:22-25

  2. Paul Bruggink - #20946

    July 8th 2010

    This is the best response I’ve seen so far to Dr. Mohler’s presentation. Keeping it focused on Scripture rather than science is the only approach that will possible be helpful.

    For you next assignment, how about a similar response to John MacArthur’s incredibly long series of YEC blogs.

  3. Gordon J. Glover - #20952

    July 8th 2010

    Great response!  Moreover, while there have always some Christians who broke ranks with the majority whith respect to the days of creation, even before this view was challenged by the evidence—the belief that scripture taught that the earth was fixed at the center of the universe was unanimous.  Just open any commentary written prior to the 17th century. 

    There are 67 passages that clearly describe the universe as geocentric, while only a handful that speak of the universe being crated in 6 days.  It would seem to me that if Dr. Mohler is really that concerned with literally interpreting bible science, then he has much bigger fish to fry than the age of the earth.

    “If we can not take God at his Word when He writes of the ‘rising of the sun’—then how can we believe when He writes of the ‘rising of the Son’?”—the Association of Biblical Astronomy

  4. Joshua E. Stewart - #20953

    July 8th 2010

    One thing that gets to me with this whole discussion is that most “evangelicals” in their hermeneutical process, talk about the importance of the original context of any given text. But when they come to creation this is thrown out of the window.

  5. HornSpiel - #20985

    July 8th 2010

    Pete,

    Wouldn’t you say Dr Mohler’s difficulties with the age of the earth are mostly theological not scientific.?  How should Biologos respond to this assertion:

    Modern science… is seeking to present… an intentional challenge to the Christian account of the meaning of things. An intentional alternative to the Christian worldview and to the Christian Gospel. Evolution is central to the great secular mythology.  (Emphasis mine)

    Or this one:

    Understanding that any rendering of the bible as inerrant makes the acceptance of theistic evolution impossible. Certainly implausible.

  6. Papalinton - #21011

    July 8th 2010

    From reading the various comments on this thread and others on this site, it seems Biologos does not have a problem with science per se, rather the issue is with the multiplicity of interpretations of the Bible, and matters of theology generally.  I agree with your observation HornSpiel (#20985) that: 

    “Modern science… is seeking to present… an intentional challenge to the Christian account of the meaning of things. An intentional alternative to the Christian worldview and to the Christian Gospel. Evolution is central to the great secular mythology.”

    The word ‘intentional’  is simply wrong.  Science is not seeking to provide a differing worldview. Rather science is not mindful, either way,  to the range of views held by people.

    Cheers

  7. chaplain mike - #21041

    July 8th 2010

    Dr. Enns, thank you so much for this response. It is an excellent model of Christian conversation when one disagrees with a brother or sister in Christ.

  8. Doug Stokke - #21046

    July 8th 2010

    Terrific response and I particularly appreciate the tone in which this reply, and supporting information, is presented.  I was raised in a very literal interpretation home and environment and I’ve felt for years that I might have been slipping into some kind of heresy by asking some of the questions that I have seen answered in a God-honoring way at biologos.org.  This site has allowed me to discover new ways to worship God as my Lord and creator.

  9. RJS - #21056

    July 8th 2010

    Nice post Pete - I am surprised how little comment it has gotten. 

    I am interested to see how those who agree with Dr. Mohler would respond. A good opening for conversation…

  10. Deb - #21068

    July 9th 2010

    I am proud of, and humbled by, the generosity of mind and spirit evidenced in the three responses here at biologos to Dr. Mohler.

    Thank you for your ministry, but more importantly, for the spirit in which you minister….warm, respectful correction that is God honoring.

    Blessings on you all.

  11. Isai Garcia - #21139

    July 9th 2010

    Great response, Dr. Enns. Thank you for contributing to this issue in the spirit of love and freedom we have been given by Christ. This is a breath of fresh air considering that the majority of the time I’ve seen disagreement in the Church it has turned ugly.

  12. Eric K - #21218

    July 10th 2010

    I think the distinction of “literal” versus figurative fails us.  “Literal” often connotes wooden literalism to people.  Pete alludes to several of the many genres of literature that are really under consideration. 

    Several dictionaries cite “literal” as meaning - adhering to the primary meaning of the text or sample under consideration.  In short, literal is not an antonym to figurative.  All literature contains figures of speech!

    Poets even speak of literal and figurative poetry in English: and no ποίησις would seem to fit Dr. Mohler’s definition of literal.

    There are many categories of literature in Genesis and many more in the Bible.  Mohler brings up the authority of 2000 years of tradition. 

    Pete pushes the calendar back and alludes to the Reformers, Church Fathers and ANE tradition which would certainly be important to ancient and modern hearers.  I might add the Rabbis and their predecessors.

    Let us have ears to hear and read the Bible as inspired literature.

  13. Pete Enns - #21224

    July 10th 2010

    Great comment, Eric, and right on the money. The history of biblical interpretation, Christian and Jewish, is remarkably subtle, flexible, nuanced, dynamic, thoughtful, and sophisticated. To reduce that in any way to a questionable use of the word “literal” is—to say the least—highly problematic.

  14. sy g. - #21239

    July 10th 2010

    Mohler discusses the book of nature, as general revelation, and submits that Scrioture, the book of special revelation, must always trump. But this leads to the question of who wrote the Book of Nature? By specifying that this book is in fact a form of revelation, Mohler seems to agree that the author is in fact God. If that is true, then why claim that one book trumps the other. When God writes in the book of nature that natural selection and genetic data explain the divergence and development of life on Earth, is His word less valid than it was in the Book written thousands of years ago? When God reveals that the cosmos is not ageless and steady state, but had a beginning as a singularity 13 billion years ago, why should we dismiss that revelation in favor of an earlier, more poetic and less detailed one?

    In fact, the question is why do we need to compare the two Books of Truth, (Nature and Scripture) and feel the need to reject one or the other, assuming, as well all do, that both have the same Author? Clearly, the answer is that we need to accept both works as true, and when they appear to disagree, devote the energy necessary to interpret the hidden meaning behind each of them to find their single unified truth.

  15. Justin Poe - #21248

    July 10th 2010

    sy g….your point is yet another point in the chasm that separates liberal theology and conservative theology.  I know biologos hates those terms but it’s the truth.  Does nature really tell us more about God then Scripture???  Really?  Scripture is clear in what nature tells us about God and that is that no man is without excuse for not believing in a creator.  Scripture itself however, goes much beyond nature in revealing the character and nature of God. 


    YEC however, don’t believe that nature rejects Scripture or vice versa, we do clearly believe that God’s revealed Word is on a higher level then nature, certainly in it’s fallen state.

  16. MyGoatyBeard - #21364

    July 12th 2010

    Very suprised there aren’t more positive comments here.  I guess people are generally less interested in the controversy itself and more interested in the solutions.  So it would be really good if Dr Mohler could take part in the dialogue.

    It certainly seems like a place where people get a respectful hearing.

  17. Karl A - #21526

    July 13th 2010

    MyGoatyBeard: For the record, I think this was a great article.  My guess is that the majority, if they agree with a post, will not bother to write a comment saying so.  Unless we feel Pete needs a cheering section. smile

    What is disappointing to me is the lack of response from YEC adherents.  Aside from blanket dismissals like Justin Poe’s, how are we to interpret this lack?  Is it that there are few YEC adherents reading these?  Or that the post is so poorly written and ridiculous it doesn’t bear engaging? (I think not.) Or that people are afraid to post as YECs? (I hope not.) Or that Pete’s points are very hard to argue with?  Or they’re waiting for Dr. Mohler to respond?

    Until/unless we see some YEC engagement on this issue, the comments will be few.  I hope BioLogos is seeking a more systematic YEC response.  It is a shame though if we can’t get dialog going on this constellation of issues lest the chasm that divides us grow greater. 

    If you agree with Dr. Mohler, let’s hear from you!  The rest of us will promise to be gracious, right? smile

  18. Karl A - #21527

    July 13th 2010

    By the way, there is a gracious online debate between Karl Giberson and Ken Ham (YEC).  They actually talked to each other rather than past each other and avoided ad hominem arguments.  http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/2008/10/karl-giberson-why-i-am-not-a-c.html . If you look at it, 1) feel free to ignore the mainly unhelpful comments by the bystanders at the bottom; 2) at the very bottom is where you click to get to the next response.

  19. nedbrek - #21531

    July 13th 2010

    There isn’t really much to say here.  The “direct reading” comes first.  A non-direct reading comes only from comparing the Bible with itself, and then applying logic (Jesus said “I am the door” - He is obviously not literally a door).

    All this talk about a sea monster, I haven’t seen.  I’ve read Genesis several times and the whole OT two or three times.

    Re. the firmament - many YEC do believe there was some sort of orbital water layer.  This may be related to the higher partial oxygen pressure present to support antediluvian plants and animals (something which I have not seen a OE explanation for).

    Re. the slippery slope - the Protestant mainlines adopted evolution and the old earth; they are now gutted (doctrinally, and population wise).  Make what you will of that.  The modern evangelical movement comes from the Fundamentalists (back when fundamentals wasn’t a dirty word) who rejected OE.

  20. Justin Poe - #21536

    July 13th 2010

    Karl,  I think my post was a blanket dismissal because I do feel this is a very wide gap that separates TE and YEC.  Basically what ned says in his last post.  One side believes that Scripture, while laying out the plan of salvation for mankind is pot marked with human errors, leaving room for outside sources to help interpret the words themselves (the Gilgamish Epic for example).  The other side believes that God did not allow any historical errors (possibly only some translation errors, i.e. numbers or something) but nothing that takes away from the actual meaning of the passage. 

    I don’t see how either side can come together and debate this issue (although I haven’t viewed the Ham/Giberson debate yet).

    Here’s what this means theologically and scientifically.  Both sides have the scientific evidence to view and it’s the same for both.  Both can measure the age of an archeological find.  Yet, both sides will come up with different dates.  Why?

  21. Justin Poe - #21537

    July 13th 2010

    cont…

    I have my own answer to the why but i’ll reserve it for now.

  22. Justin Poe - #21538

    July 13th 2010

    I’d like to add this also.  yes, there have been a number of conservative evangelicals that have embraced OEC (Warfield, C.S. Lewis to name two that get invoked here allot).  BUT neither these two, nor many of the others believed as radically as what BL does when it comes the mythology of Gen 1-11.  They just didn’t it.  Most were gap theorists who believed that the days were longer then a literal day but they still believed that God created as it says, without evolution.  BL (well, not BL itself other then their promotion of) has gone way further out on the gap….so BL isn’t going to get Dr. Mohler to even come close to responding here to anything other then the age of the earth….I expect he won’t even bother to respond to mythology stories or interpretations.

  23. R Hampton - #21586

    July 13th 2010

    BL isn’t going to get Dr. Mohler to even come close to responding here to anything other then the age of the earth

    That would be a great step forward because it would mean that Dr. Mohler can accept that Science vis-a-vis Natural Revelation can know Truth outside of the Bible. But that’s the whole point behind Evangelical opposition - idolizing Scripture more than God (as viewed from a TE perspective) - and the reason why Dr. Mohler can’t abandon YEC.

  24. Karl A - #21643

    July 13th 2010

    I actually like your response, Justin (21536).  I hear you giving another possible reason for the lack of YEC response.  The issues we’re discussing here are like a big tangled ball of yarn, and it’s quite difficult (if not impossible) to separate out just one thread without disturbing the others.  I’ll admit my innocent reading of creationist and mainstream science literature has led me down a path with some quite unexpected twists and turns.  Or, to introduce a third metaphor, when I opened the can it wasn’t just one worm that crawled out.

    Yet my faith in Christ is strong and the nagging fear of being confronted with something that would destroy it is greatly lessened.

  25. TomH - #21769

    July 14th 2010

    I wonder why Dr. Enns only uses the watery chaos of the Babylonian myth.  Why doesn’t he also use some more of the Babylonian myth—for instance, that God is a dragon named Tiamat?  Why doesn’t he apply that part of the ANE context to the God of Genesis 1?  It seems that Dr. Enns is cherry-picking his facts.

    Also, I wonder whether Dr. Enns thinks that Moses wrote Genesis 1 or whether it was written during a later period.  That would have a significant impact on the context of Genesis 1 as regards the time of the context and cultural context (Egypt, Midian v. some other culture).

    Dr. Enns wrote, “Many have concluded that a truly “literal” day, with evening and morning, requires a sun…”  Why is this necessarily true?  Couldn’t the light from day one have persisted?  I would agree that the definition of a Genesis 1 day is “evening and morning” rather than “a 24 hour period of time.”  However, I don’t see how this helps to reconcile Genesis 1 with Common Ancestry.

    I would say that, on the day after the sun was created, “evening and morning” also equaled “a 24 hour period of time.”  I also think that not too much time must have passed between the creation of plants and the creation of the sun.

  26. George Janev - #21788

    July 14th 2010

    Keep up the good work BioLogos. Love the works of Pete Enns. Loved Francis Collins landmark book. Handed out several copies to friends in the Pres Ch of Australia (Vic). I suspect that YEC’s are mainly concerned with the implications of an OE to their own personal salvation. At least, that’s what I experienced as I initially investigated some of these issues. Representing prehistory in mythological terms to an ancient people makes sense to me. God is then able to guide this people forward to an appreciation of His goodness, and they can progressively refine their views of prehistory as time goes on, as their ability to interpret the Book of Nature increases. An evolved humanity still requires redemption. It is still striving towards perfection. Jesus is still the Saviour. The integrity of the Christian faith remains intact. Warmest Regards to all at BioLogos.

  27. Derek Taylor - #21946

    July 15th 2010

    It’s interesting to me that most people from the OE perspective feel that it is only the YE crowd that must answer difficult questions. I listened to Mohler’s entire speech and think that he does lay out some things that are difficult to reconcile (for the OE perspective). I agree with him that a “spiritual death only” view of the fall in Genesis 3 is a speculative assumption at best and worse, it contradicts Romans 5:12 and 8:20-22. I Cor 15 doesn’t hold together or make sense either. Then in Matthew 19:4, Jesus refers to the Genesis account of creation as historically true, even stating that “at the beginning the Creator made them male and female”, placing them on the scene at origin. Romans 1:20 echoes much the same thing. Some may question Paul’s knowledge base, but Colossians 1:15 makes implausible that Christ would have faulty knowledge here. I have other concerns that make theistic evolution sufficiently problematic/difficult to embrace, but these are a couple of my sticking points.

  28. TomH - #21982

    July 15th 2010

    I would add that it seems to me that there is a root spiritual issue in all this that is overlooked.  Let us suppose for the sake of argument that the non-figurative reading is in fact what God intended.  If that is so, and science contradicts Genesis, and TEs asserted that science was correct and the non-figurative reading of Genesis was wrong, wouldn’t they also be implictly asserting that science was more knowledgable than God about this issue and wouldn’t TEs be denigrating God’s attribute of omniscience and attributing omniscience to science, which essentially would amount to idolatry?

    If the non-figurative reading were correct, wouldn’t assigning the figurative reading amount to a cover-up or twisting of God’s message?

    Discussing all these various ideas is helpful and shouldn’t be discouraged, imo.

  29. R Hampton - #22005

    July 15th 2010

    wouldn’t they also be implictly asserting that science was more knowledgable than God

    No, for the reason that your comparison is flawed. Scripture, like Nature, was authored by God. That does not mean, however, that we can know either perfectly as God does. Instead we have invented mechanism to help us understand; Theology for Scripture, Science for Nature. Because God does contradict himself, Scripture and Nature are never at odds. So when we find a contradiction between Theology and Science, we know that there is a flaw in our understanding.

    So the correct way to view your issue is that Science can (and does) assert that it has more knowledge than Theology on specific concepts. For example, a plainly read Scripture reveals that the Sun orbits the Earth whereas Science reveals the opposite. So who and what was wrong? Man’s theology (his interpretation of Scripture) was wrong, but Scripture itself or God the author.

  30. R Hampton - #22006

    July 15th 2010

    The last line should read; “Man’s theology (his interpretation of Scripture) was wrong, but not Scripture itself or God the author.”

  31. gingoro - #22010

    July 15th 2010

    R Hampton @22005

    Well said.  All truth is God’s truth but sometimes (always?) my perception of it is rather flawed.
    Dave W

  32. Argon - #22095

    July 16th 2010

    TomH - #21769: “I would say that, on the day after the sun was created, “evening and morning” also equaled “a 24 hour period of time.”

    The evidence is that the days were shorter in the past. The moon’s tidal influence has slowed the planet’s rate of rotation. About a half-billion years ago it was probably more like a 22-hour day.

  33. Derek Taylor - #22109

    July 16th 2010

    #3 in Dr. Enn’s response is not compelling for the following reason: God is fully capable of measuring a unit of 1 day without a sun. This argument employs hair splitting technicalities to squirm out of a common sense reading of the text. That isn’t good exegesis, by any objective measure.
    I’d actually be inclined to believe the day-age concept if it weren’t for this kind of argumentation. I’d also be more inclined towards the day-age perspective if Moses had ever used the term “yamin” or “yom” to refer to “eons”. He always referred to it in terms of an actual, ordinary day.

  34. Paul Springer - #22797

    July 21st 2010

    What I am missing in this article or Giberson’s response is dealing head on with the main objection Mohler raised. While I appreciate Enns trying to use Scripture (as you will get nowhere in discussions with people like Mohler if you don’t know and use your Bible) my struggle is that all the responses seem to be focused on why BL folks don’t like what Mohler said about Gen 1. Please respond to the main point of his argument which is that the OE position in any of its forms causes exegetical and theological gymnastics NOT just with Genesis but The Gospels and Romans (and I would argue Revelation as well). Can you explain how if following the commonly accepted scientific interpretation of the data in the case of creation is right,  we can still hold to a virgin birth and two natures in one person (since like begets like and the genetics of conception are very well established)? When in the end Mohler chalks it up to things only the AoD knows, I think what he is getting at is we cannot exhaustively detail how the supernatural and natural world relate with science only, Scripture only, or both, but what He has given us is sufficient and true and the rest we will have to wait and ask Him in person.

  35. R Hampton - #22814

    July 21st 2010

    Can you explain how if following the commonly accepted scientific interpretation of the data in the case of creation is right,  we can still hold to a virgin birth and two natures in one person (since like begets like and the genetics of conception are very well established)?

    What you see as f “exegetical and theological gymnastics” is simply the Truth for the Roman Catholic Church. So to answer your question, not only is it possible to hold these views, it’s a daily reality for millions. So the question you ought to ask is, why does Dr. Mohler - and others like him - ignore this obvious contradictory evidence?

  36. Matt - #22822

    July 21st 2010

    I agree that the ball of yarn is so tangled that playing with one strand sets off a chain reaction.  Perhaps part of the hesitancy from YEC’s to post is that they have largely been relegated to “knuckle dragging” status by those who trumpet an Old Earth position (both inside and outside the church).  Isn’t that what was recently said in a video post on this website by a seminary professor…either get on board with the OE position or risk being relegated to “cult status.”  I see incredible theological problems with an OE interpretation of Genesis.  Did God create man distinct from all of the animals in His own Image?  Did death enter the world before the fall or as a consequence of the fall?  Is it true that by one man’s sin death entered the world and thus death passed to all men?  Why would Jesus establish the doctrine of marriage based on a literal Adam and Eve if He knew that Genesis 1-11 was myth?  Was Peter mistaken when He said that only eight people were spared in the flood if it was only a local flood?  If Genesis 1-11 is myth…what do we make of Christ as the second Adam?  Many OE have acknowledged the need for a literal Adam, but this becomes very messy when you bring it to Scripture (cont’d)

  37. Matt - #22824

    July 21st 2010

    In the same verses where you have the account of Adam and Eve, you also have a talking serpent.  Is that myth?  Are we going to reject the talking serpent but keep Adam and Eve.  Are we going to reject the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life?  What exactly is true about Genesis 1-3 and what isn’t? 

    Also, we are constantly told that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.  Having said that, I could bring quote after quote from leading evolutionists who concede that the evidence is not as strong as the conviction.  The fossil record has enormous gaps, mechanisms for change such as mutation and natural slection have not shown increases in genetic information…in fact, most of what my 16 year old sister reads in her biology book about evolution is contrary to “macro-evolution,” it results in a decrease in information.  The frustrating thing is that even though this is true, and many evolutionists admit that it is true, we are still rediculed for not believing because apparently this isn’t an issue of evidence but of interpretation (and they want one without God). 

    Am I an intellectual midget if I reject evolution?  Does anyone else see an inability to produce evidence and an agenda that dosn’t care?

  38. John VanZwieten - #22974

    July 22nd 2010

    Matt,

    Many of us have been taught theology that makes it very difficult to accept the scientific findings related to an old earth and common descent.  Because of those theological beliefs, we have tended to listen to those voices that butress those beliefs, while discounting or ignoring (or even demonizing) voices which threaten those beliefs.

    I’m sure if you make an honest effort to engage both the scientific evidence and the scholarly challenges to some theology you might have been taught, nobody around here will consider you an “intellectual midget” for rejecting evolution.

    I would recommend you really investigate the series of posts here called “Evidences for Evolution”.  They can be a bit challenging for those of us with little background in science, but with a bit of effort I’m sure you can engage the evidence.  You might also do a bit of reading regarding the literary genre of “myth” as well as Peter Enn’s posts applying features of that genre to Genesis.

  39. Matt - #22994

    July 22nd 2010

    I don’t mean to demonize anyone, so I apologize if the tone or content of my comment seemed in any way to do so, however I must concede that I have deep misgivings about both the “evidence” and the “agenda” that is tied up in OE ideas.  First, as has been pointed out in many discussions on this website, it is not the evidence that YEC’s have problem with.  We all have the same universe, the same earth, the same fossils, etc.  It is the interpretation of the evidence that we disagree with.  I did some general reviews of “Evidences for Evolution” and I what I see it is an “a priori” commitment to an old earth.  I’m not going to argue that radiometric dating, tree rings, and other “avenues” of evidence haven’t been interpreted to support an Old Earth.  I would point out however, that observational science has often contradicted these lines of evidence.  Rocks of known ages have been dated to be millions of years older than they really are.  Certain gases that should have escaped rocks that are millions of years old (according to scientists) are none the less present in the rocks.  Numerous examples of rapidly forming fossils have been documented and rock layers that are supposed to be laid down slowly are bent…

  40. Matt - #22997

    July 22nd 2010

    The odd thing to me is that none of this “evidence” seems to cause people to question the interpretation that the earth is very old.  Instead, a natural explanation for these things is sought after that can fit within an OE framework.  This seems like an “a priori” commitment to an old earth interpretation, rather than an unbiased attempt to follow the “evidence” wherever it leads.  To many on this website, these criticisms might seem weak, especially if you have become convinced that the “evidence” does demonstrate an OE.  But, is it not conceivable that strong voices behind an OE are just as committed to their interpretation (often in spite of the evidence) as a YEC is to a “literal” interpretation of Genesis.  My greatest desire is to stand before God someday and say that I always sought to “rightly divide the word of Truth.”  That with prayer and dilligence, I attempted to build my thinking upon the Word of God.  That is my presupposition.  I concede an “a priori” commitment to the absolute truth and authority of Scripture.  I just find it frustrating that many don’t recognize presuppositions and “a priori” commitments in OE thought.  I will continue to read the posts you suggested.  God bless.

  41. Matt - #22998

    July 22nd 2010

    Sorry about the poor wording in the first response.  The sentence should read “I did some general reviews of “Evidences for Evolution” and what I see is an “a priori” commitment to an old earth.

  42. John VanZwieten - #23072

    July 23rd 2010

    Matt,

    I didn’t mean to imply that you had been demonizing anyone, only that it happens.  You seem open to discussion.

    You may or may not realize it, but the line “we all have the same facts, just different interpretations of those facts” is part of the Answers in Genesis propaganda that many of us were led to believe.  What I found (as a YEC/OEC) is that the more I dug into the “facts” of YEC, the more I found obfuscation and the manu-fact-uring of friendly data. 

    The rocks you mention that were dated much older than they were know to be are a perfect example.  YECs wanted to cast doubt on radiometric dating, so they took newly formed rocks from Mt. St. Helens and sent them in for testing using methods they knew were inappropiate for young rocks!  Well, surprise, the rocks were dated much older than they were known to be and the YECs had “data” showing radiometric dating to be unreliable.

    I won’t go into detail on the “overlapping dino-human footprints” that made the rounds as YEC “data” for at least a decade.

    This is not to say all YEC scientists are dishonest.  Some, like Todd Wood at Bryan College seem quite honest with the data even when it conflicts with his beliefs.

  43. John VanZwieten - #23077

    July 23rd 2010

    (cont.)

    The reason mainstream scientists do not question an old earth at this point is that so many independent lines of evidence converge to tell the same story of an earth that is about 4.5byo.  So a problem with one line of evidence should not overturn the others—rather further exploration/understanding of that evidence would be the natural response.

    For a (somewhat dated) review of earth-dating issues, see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

    Someone here can probably post something better ...

  44. Bill R. - #23200

    July 23rd 2010

    TomH - #21982

    How to read Genesis is a good question.

    When I want to communicate something to a young child, I use a smaller vocabulary than when talking with a highly educated person.

    We are more or less used to grappling with how much the Son gave up to be born and to learn the language(s) of his family and extended family.  Learning the language(s) so that he could later teach his followers.  But for many of us Evangelicals, thinking about God inspiring the writers of the Old Testament but being limited by their language and culture more or less like Jesus was limited in becoming a baby, with a brain that would not complete its growth until he was perhaps 19 years old, is a new concept. 

    So for me, thinking about how we communicate with our grandchildren when they are very young helps to understand how God must have limited himself to communicate to and through the writers of the Old Testament.  The language and culture of the audience were limiting factors.

  45. Bill R. - #23201

    July 23rd 2010

    (cont.)
    When reading Genesis, we want to understand God’s message.  Some of the first creation account, is similar in some ways to the creation stories in nearby cultures of the same time period. God’s message is not what the Genesis account has in common with the creation stories of the other cultures, but it is the ways in which it is different from them.  For example, since surrounding cultures believed in a firmament (or dome), the mention of the firmament was not God’s message, but a part of how he communicated it.  Raquia (firmament) is translated as sky or expanse is some of the newer translations.  This is good because when those ancients looked up at the sky, they thought they saw a solid blue dome, and when we look up we see light from the sun diffracted by the atmosphere making the sky blue.  The message is about the only God and what he did.  So it is easy for us to understand the message as we don’t have to consider how they thought about the sky.  But understanding the actual wording of the Hebrew does help us, I think, to appreciate how God limited himself in communicating his message in Genesis One (and in the rest of the Bible).

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