Footprints in the Sand

January 11, 2010
Category: BioLogos Features

"Science and the Sacred" frequently features essays from The BioLogos Foundation's leaders and Senior Fellows. Today's entry was written by Darrel Falk. Darrel Falk serves as president of The BioLogos Foundation. He transitioned into Christian higher education 25 years ago and has given numerous talks about the relationship between science and faith at many universities and seminaries. He is the author of Coming to Peace with Science.

I have a confession to make. I almost hollered in frustration when I read what Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute wrote about this week’s cover story in Nature. Then I read Donald M‘s blog over at Uncommon Descent. It happened all over again—I almost hollered. I am the one who wrote that we need to imagine our exchanges as being like conversation over coffee. I am the one who indicated that as we put away our cups, we need to do so as friends. For far too long the discussion regarding this issue has been like people yelling at each other. The louder we yell, the less we hear. So here I am, coffee cup in hand, ruminating over what I fully expect was a sincere effort to do what they think is right, even though it seemed so wrong to me. I don’t want to holler, and I don’t want to be condescending, we all have to listen to each other. There is much at stake.

The Nature article describes the finding of “footprints in the mud”—some quite detailed—in what is now 395 million year old rock. This set of walks in what was then a marine intertidal zone represent the earliest vertebrate footprints ever discovered. Until last week’s publication, we didn’t know there were animals with backbones walking on land that early. This is 18 million years earlier than paleobiologists expected. I was shocked when I read the article, but my old scientific juices started to flow, too. Science thrives on unexpected results, especially when they show unequivocally that things are not as simple as they first thought. Scientists are—first and foremost—puzzle-solvers. Finding a new piece that doesn’t quite fit into the picture and then revising it accordingly is what brings great joy to being a scientist.

You may remember the excitement engendered by the 2006 report of the discovery of a well-articulated fossil in northern Canada. It contained the impression of the bones of Tiktaalik, a fish that 375 million years ago had obviously been able to support itself on land. Neil Shubin’s book, Your Inner Fish, describes the discovery of Tiktaalik. As one of my two all-time favorite science books, I wrote a blog post about it soon after we started Science and the Sacred last May. Now though, as a result of these footprints-in-the-mud, we know that neither Tiktaalik, nor any of its contemporary cousin species, was the transitional species that led to the first land vertebrates. That transition had occurred at least 18 to 20 million years earlier. As interesting as this information is, it will simply involve a revision in the timing of the origin of land vertebrates.

I am puzzled then, that Donald M. in his Uncommon Descent blog, concludes his discussion of the footprints story this way: “…as more and more discoveries like this one are forthcoming, it seems less and less likely that there even is an evolutionary tape to rewind.” Why would he conclude from this that evolution is untrue—that there was no evolutionary “tape?” Why does he think that because scientists were perhaps two percentage points off on their estimate of the timing of the origin of land vertebrates, that this puts the theory of evolution into crisis? Why does he tell people this?

Excuse me. I need to take another sip of my coffee.

Casey Luskin puts the “crisis” into a broader perspective. After telling the Tiktaalik story in his blog, he goes on to summarize four other cases where new data has emerged this year. For reasons, I do not understand he thinks that when new data arises it puts the entire theory into crisis. Here are his four other events:

  • Archaeoptrix, which has long been known to be closely related to the transitional species on the lineage from reptiles to birds, was shown to have a bone growth pattern which is more like a dinosaur than expected. This is minor tweaking. I don’t know of anyone who thinks that Archaeoptrix is the transitional species. There are likely a whole set of them and the chances that Archaeoptrix itself is on the lineage are probably quite slim. I’m not sure Luskin understands this.
  • The fossilized remains of a 4.2 million year old early hominid, Ardipithecus ramidus were described. Science magazine has declared this to be the most important discovery of 2009. True, there is some ambiguity as to whether this species was on the direct lineage to humans. It may well have been a cousin species. But we have new data and even a new species. The fact that it may or may not be on the direct lineage to humans is irrelevant to the theory of evolution. It doesn’t, in contrast to what Luskin states, even provide reason to doubt. It is beside the point.
  • A paper was published in which the authors conclude that birds may have arisen through the Archosaur lineage of reptiles rather than the dinosaur lineage. I think we can just wait for more data. I don’t know of any paleobiologist who has suggested that this creates reason to doubt that birds evolved from reptiles.
  • There was a great deal of media hype about the discovery of a primitive primate, Darwinius masillae, which lived 47 million years ago. (Primates include monkey, lemurs, apes, and humans.) For some reason this, the earliest complete primate fossil ever found, was touted by the media as a missing link to humans. All it did was fill in some missing data on very early stages of primate evolution 40 million years before the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees strolled upon the earth. It was a nice piece of data that provided a more complete story for primate evolution in general. Certainly its description and the media hype associated with it do not create reason to doubt that primates evolved.

Luskin concludes his discussion of these paleontology discoveries by citing a quotation from Francis Collins: "The evidence mounts every day to support the concept that we and all other organisms on this planet are descended from a common ancestor, and that the theory of evolution is really no longer a theory in the sense of being untested. It is a theory in the sense of gravity. It is a fact." Having quoted Collins, and having discussed the new data described above Luskin goes on to say, ”But yet we see the facts of neo-Darwinism constantly being revised.” Collins didn’t say that these five bits of the still emerging story were facts. He said that the theory of evolution is a fact. Of course, the details are being revised. Is not that how science works?

I need another sip of coffee.

Remember what Steven Benner said in his essay on December 30? “When scientists cease to be more critical of data that support their own hypotheses than data that contradict them, they soon lose the ability to distinguish reality from non-reality.” Science works through constant revision of the individual little hypotheses that make up the entire body of the theory. Luskin and Donald M don’t seem to understand this. Why did the footprints-in-the-mud make the cover of Nature magazine? Why is Ardipithecus on the cover of this week’s Science magazine? It is because scientists, when they are at their best, love to find pieces in a puzzle that don’t quite fit their pre-conceived notions.

So if ID is really science (and I believe it is), why are the scientific leaders of the movement allowing Casey Luskin and Donald M to make statements that are so illogical? With all due respect, as I wash my coffee cup and place it on the wall hanger beside the sink, I am thinking that the leaders owe it to members of the Church who are not scientists to make sure that this kind of writing ceases for good. It is not fair to the Church and it dishonors the discipline. Can we (I say ‘we’ because these people are my brothers and sisters in the family of God) get back on track? I hope so. There is much at stake.

Filed Under:
evolution, fossils, fossil record, science, religion, debate, discussion, natural history, Nature, data, evidence, scientists, Casey Luskin, Donald M

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  1. Glen Davidson - #2265

    January 11th 2010

    Oh no, science is being practiced right before our very eyes.  And with no shame.

    It’s pretty clear that Luskin would protect us from such a fate.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  2. beaglelady - #2269

    January 11th 2010

    So if ID is really science, and you say you believe it is, how can it be falsified?

  3. Mere_Christian - #2271

    January 11th 2010

    Hmmm, “I” am a broither in the faith and I see that my being called a “troll” by an anti-Christ (John’s description not just mine) is still up in the comments section elsewhere.

    Are you really trying to get along with Church members who are “not scientists”?

    When all the dust settles, the Church (all the people) we still be a reality that cannot be sent away by scientific or enlightenment rhetoric.

    When will there be articles to edify The Church universal?

  4. VMartin - #2272

    January 11th 2010

    I participated at the discussion under the DonaldM’‘s article “Editing the Tape..”. My point was that Charles Darwin applied model of competitive liberal society into Nature and posited it there as “Natural selection” or Natural law.

    But the main idea of the article is at it’s beginning - the claim of Jay Gould:
    “Replay the tape [of evolution] a million times from a Burgess [the Burgess Shale fossils]beginning, and I doubt that anything like Homo sapiens would ever evolve again.”

    We shouldn’t miss this crucial point debating the article. I wonder if Darrel Falk agree with the bizarre claim. If not where he sees the force that contradicts Gould’s claim (based on “scientific terms” like random mutation and natural selection which Biologos support) and how such forces could be observed. Unless such problems are solved demands like “that this kind of writing ceases for good” are premature.
    ———————-
    Needles to say I devoted my blog to such observation - be it professor Adolf Portman, Richard Goldschmidt and others. Prominent scholars who for sure wouldn’t agree with Gould and who were no IDists.

  5. Gregory Arago - #2276

    January 11th 2010

    Coffee or tea in hand are a good thing especially during some of these discussions, Darrel, I agree!

    I can only offer a perspective as a non-palaeontologist as to why the mentioned Donald M. would say what he did or what he meant. So I guess you could call this a ‘psychology of science.’

    Many people confuse ‘evolution’ or ‘evolutionary theory’ with ‘natural history.’

    On the one hand, there are people who refuse certain features (e.g. mechanisms) of ‘evolution,’ but accept ‘natural history.’ It is a cliche to say ‘history happened.’

    Luskin for example, accepts the broad theory of evolution, but doesn’t accept all of the Darwinian mechanisms. Margulis doesn’t either! What is needed then is another name for the newer ‘theory of evolution’ that breaks free from ‘Darwin’s Errors.’ Whose name do you propose?

    Otoh, ‘evolution’ is an empty term scientifically if it just means ‘natural history.’

    Casey Luskin (a rather decent guy if you meet him) holds a BSc. & MSc. in biology & earth sciences & an LLD. Maybe one of the problems is with American higher education?

  6. Gregory Arago - #2281

    January 11th 2010

    Does Collins perhaps confuse physics with biology when he writes: “[Evolution] is a theory in the sense of gravity”?

    One could suggest that “Reciprocal altruism is a theory in the sense of gravity. It is a fact.”

    But what would that really ‘mean’ to people, to society?

    Re: Benner’s essay, there is a concept duo that has been discussed in ‘the literature’ about it. Max Weber’s profound essay on “Science as a Vocation” (1919) speaks about the importance of presenting ‘inconvenient facts’ to one’s theories in the classroom. For Weber, this is an example of promoting one’s ‘intellectual integrity.’

    I dare say we could benefit from a whole lot more of ‘intellectual integrity’ in the American culture wars over ‘evolution,’ ‘design’ and ‘creation.’

  7. pds - #2287

    January 11th 2010

    Darrel,

    Collins said, “The evidence mounts every day to support the concept that we and all other organisms on this planet are descended from a common ancestor, and that the theory of evolution is really no longer a theory in the sense of being untested. It is a theory in the sense of gravity. It is a fact.”

    Collins and others are quite vague about what is “fact” and what is “theory with the details being worked out.”  Which parts of “evolution” are “facts” which will be shown to be false facts ten years from now?  We do not know.  Piltdown man was a fact once.  Straight line horse evolution was a fact once.  I could list hundreds of other examples. 

    Luskin’s point it seems to me is that skepticism is warranted.  Skepticism is not “illogical.”  What specifically is illogical in his skepticism?  Science thrives on skepticism.  Why are you attacking Luskin’s so harshly?

    In my opinion, Collins comparison of the theory of evolution with the law of gravity is highly misleading and harmful.  Confusing the epistemology of historical sciences with that of operational sciences will dumb down society and the church.

  8. pds - #2295

    January 11th 2010

    One more thing: 

    1.  Successful predictions prove the theory.

    2.  Failed predictions refine the theory.

    Do you not see any problem with this?

    How do you falsify it?

  9. Gordon J. Glover - #2301

    January 11th 2010

    @Beaglelady

    “So if ID is really science, and you say you believe it is, how can it be falsified?”

    Good question: I’m starting to lean towards agreeing with Darrel only becuase the nature of the claim still requires the tools of science to investigate- even if the claim could never be falsified. 

    Example: the famous “face on mars” -planetary scientists told us that if the light / shadows are removed, the underlying features were very natural-looking and therefore not “intelligently designed” even though they might appear so.  Now if the face had as much detail as Mt. Rushmore, then I guess ET knows how to carve stone. 

    These two extremes are easy. Now imagine a gradual progression from rubble to Roosevelt.  At what point would a reasonable person claim “design”?  Could you ever really falsify it?  I imagine that at some hypothetical point along the transition from one extreme to the other, the planetary scientists would be split 50/50.  Would the “natural” crowd be justified in saying that the “design” crowd was not scientific?  I’m not so sure.  Certainly ET could arrange a pile of rocks such that it looks natural without the light, but makes a face with the shadows.

    Just thinking out loud (dangerous, I know).

  10. Gordon J. Glover - #2305

    January 11th 2010

    @pds,

    “How do you falsify it?”

    Adding a new element to the periodic table or chaning the atomic weight of a particular element by a few percentage points based on new isotope ratios does not falsify the theory of chemical periodicity.

    At first I thought you were joking, but just in case you were serious, evolution is super easy to falsify.  Just find a mammal in the Cambrian, or show icongruent morphological and molecular phylogenies between major biological groups.  You could also falsify evolution using the evidence from biogeography, if it showed a pattern of species radiation inconsistent with the evolution timeline and geologic history.

    In the case of molecular phylogenies, the redundancy of the standard genetic code offers incalculable possibilities for scrambling the universal tree of life without altering a single translated amino acid sequence.  But such is not the case.

  11. Gordon J. Glover - #2308

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gregory,

    Moreover, my use of SETI-related topics as a benchmark by which to judge some of the claims of ID is something that propoents of ID do quite frequently.  And rightly so, since the processes of distinguishing directed from undirected causes, regardless of how much or little we know about the the nature of the intelligence, are very similar.

  12. pds - #2309

    January 11th 2010

    Gordon,

    “Just find a mammal in the Cambrian”

    No, scientists would just give mammals new dating, just like Darrel proposes in this post.  Mammals in the Cambrian would just lead to “refining the theory.”

    “show icongruent morphological and molecular phylogenies between major biological groups.”

    This has been done. 

    Historical theories stand or fall on their ability to explain the evidence.  Evolution explains some well; does not explain other evidence well at all.  That is why I believe evolution partially explains the history of life on earth.

  13. Gordon J. Glover - #2311

    January 11th 2010

    pds,

    “No, scientists would just give mammals new dating, just like Darrel proposes in this post.  Mammals in the Cambrian would just lead to “refining the theory”

    I’m no so sure.  I’d like to see what Darrel’s response to that would be.  But I don’t think common descent could survive something as paradigm-shifting as mammals in the Cambrian.

    “This has been done.”

    I don’t think it has for MAJOR groups.  I believe you are referring to single-celled organisms that have means by which genetic information can transfer other than reproduction.  I’m also aware that, within the primate order for example, there are subtle differences in molecular phylogenies where different methods of reconstruting trees from base sequences give slightly different results.  But when it comes to major groups, there is congruence.  And there should not be absolute congruence apart from common ancestry.

    Can you give an example of “does not explain other evidence well at all”?  Thanks.

  14. John Kwok - #2314

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gregory -

    Have looked at Luskin’s CV and there is no indication at all that he has any expertise in biology, period (Though he may have taken one or more introductory courses, he does not possess either a bachelor’s or master’s degree).

    As I noted beforehand - which I see was deleted unfortunately - if Luskin was really a “decent guy”, he’d quit his day job and join the Katy Perry band as a backup guitarist.

    @ Gordon -

    I think Darrel’s view is erroneous. Take a look instead at Philip Kitcher’s “Living with Darwin”, in which he makes a most persuasive case that Intelligent Design should be viewed as “dead science”, since it once inspired scientific research back in the 16th through 18th Centuries, but no longer serves any purpose as a valid scientific idea, period.

  15. John Kwok - #2315

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gordon -

    It was the great British biologist JBS Haldane, who observed - back in the 1920s if I’m not mistaken - that evolution would be falsified if someone found a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian. What pds doesn’t understand is that we have known how biostratigraphy - the science of correlating geological strata with fossils - works for centuries, starting with Leonard Da Vinci’s pioneering work and culminating with William Smith’s late 18th and early 19th Century landmark work (that was the subject of a popular bestseller by British author Simon Winchester a few years ago).

  16. Gordon J. Glover - #2320

    January 11th 2010

    @Kwok,

    Thanks, I’ll take a look at Kitcher’s “Living with Darwin”.  For me personally, the issue is back on the table.  So I appreciate the recommendation.

  17. John Kwok - #2322

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gregory -

    I completely endorse Gordon’s remarks (# 2138).

    While we are on the topic of answering “questions”, you have still refused to answer these, so I must conclude that you are, contrary to your claims notwithstanding, an Intelligent Design creationist (which, I might add is also confirmed by your favorable appraisal of Discovery Institute mendacious intellectual pornographer Casey Luskin):

    1) Do you accept the scientific fact of biological evolution, especially since it is very well corroborated (and thus established) throughout all of biology?

    2) Do you recognize the Modern Synthesis Theory of evolution as the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory currently available that accounts for the scientific fact of biological evolution?

    Am looking forward to your answers, so please respond accordingly soon.

  18. John Kwok - #2323

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gordon -

    As far back as the early 19th Century, leading “scientific” creationists like Adam Sedgwick, the Cambridge University cleric who was Charles Darwin’s geology professor, recognized that Intelligent Design was not scientific. For Darrel to entertain that there is some scientific validity in Intelligent Design is not only incorrect, but flies in the face of credible, substantial recognition by scientists, as far back as Sedgwick’s time, who have recognized that Intelligent Design is not scientific. Please add Kitcher’s book to your reading list soon. It will be most rewarding.

    Sincerely,

    John

  19. Karl Giberson - #2324

    January 11th 2010

    On Engineering….

    ID is an “engineering driven paradigm.”  I think Glover’s knowledge of engineering and clever use of engineering examples is highly relevant to this conversation.

    Unlike many engineers though, Glover understands science and how nuanced it is.  The problem with engineering in general is that it is so practical. Many engineers don’t have much of a feel for how nuanced and “fuzzy” science is.

  20. John Kwok - #2326

    January 11th 2010

    @ Karl -

    Very, very well stated (# 2324). I concur completely.

    I earnestly hope you can persuade Darrel that there is, quite frankly, nothing to be gained to consider that there is any potential scientific utility for Intelligent Design. It should be viewed instead, as eminent philosopher of science Philip Kitcher has noted, as “dead science”, and also, upon my own recommendation, as mendacious intellectual pornography.

  21. hm - #2332

    January 11th 2010

    Gordon:

    “Thanks, I’ll take a look at Kitcher’s “Living with Darwin”.  For me personally, the issue is back on the table.  So I appreciate the recommendation.”

    I recommend two books:
    1. Del Ratzsch: Nature, Design, and Science: The Status of Design in Natural Science
    http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Design-Science-Natural-Philosophy/dp/0791448940

    2. Mike Gene: The Design Matrix: A Consilience of Clues
    http://www.amazon.com/Design-Matrix-Consilience-Clues/dp/0978631404
    See also Gene’s blog
    http://designmatrix.wordpress.com/

  22. Gordon J. Glover - #2333

    January 11th 2010

    @John Kwok,

    I’m curious how you would respond to my “thought experiment” in #2301 if the planetary scientists were split 50/50, and one side accused the others’ hypothesis of not being scientific.  Does the lack of any direct evidence for ET intelligence render the claim unscientific from the get-go?

    Now obviously when it comes to origin of life issues, such reasoning either leads to theories of panspermia, or to faith in a transcendent immaterial creator—and invoking an immaterial mind to account for molecular machinery only replaces the “DNA enigma” with the “mind-body” problem which is taking one step forward and two steps back. 

    But still, are not we still doing science when we ask/answer qeustions about whether a structure is the product of mind or matter? (cont…)

  23. Gordon J. Glover - #2334

    January 11th 2010

    (...cont) 

    Here is another example: the other day I was working at home at the breakfast table and heard a strange noise coming from my office.  But every time I walked towards my office to investigate, the noice stopped.  When I returned to the breakfast table, the noise started up again.  I did this several times and concluded that the noise was coming from a critter (ie: something alive that could sense my presence and “descide” not to make noise).  At it turned out, it was the speakers on my computer that were making static.  I still can’t explain why the first few times I walked in the room they stopped, but I could have just as easily been right since the noise sounded just like a rat chewing a hole in a ceiling tile. 

    So in this case, I assumedthe cause of the phenomena was ‘intelligence’ and I was wrong.  But does being wrong mean that the qeustion was not scientific?  Once all the facts came out, I realized that the noise was *not* the product of intelligence.  But given the initial pattern of stopping and starting every time I entered / exited the room, was that not a reasonable first hypothesis?

  24. Gordon J. Glover - #2338

    January 11th 2010

    Thanks Karl, I appreciate the support!

  25. Mere_Christian - #2339

    January 11th 2010

    Mr. Falk, BioLogos guys et al, do you agree with Kwok here that Intelligent Design scientists are “liars?”

    Yes, or no, would be the appropriate response.

    Especially if you ever want to be on the “eminent” person list.

  26. John Kwok - #2340

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gordon -

    I would support the side in question that had clear, quite persuasive (in other words, robust) evidence for their position. As for origin of life issues, including the possibility of panspermia (which, I have invoked sarcastically as KRID (Kwok - Roddenberry Intelligent Design hypothesis), having postulated that the primordial Earth was seeded with microbes approximately 4.1 Billion Years ago via Klingons who travelled backwards in time), that’s interesting stuff, but it does not bear directly on the issue as to whether Intelligent Design could be a better, more comprehensive, “scientific theory” than the Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution in accounting for the origin, history and current composition of Planet Earth’s biodiversity (which less emphasis on origin and substantially more on both history and current composition).

    Sincerely,

    John

  27. beaglelady - #2343

    January 11th 2010

    If ID is science, why don’t ID proponents conduct research and present their findings at scientific meetings and/or in peer-reviewed journals?  Why do they side-step the scientific process and go first to schoolboys and schoolgirls?

  28. Darrel Falk - #2345

    January 11th 2010

    Several of you have wondered about my parenthetical statement in which I stated that I think ID is science. John Kwok is one and I appreciate his concern. However, John, if you have not yet read “Signature in the Cell,” I think you might benefit from doing so. Steve Meyer makes a good point of showing that ID functions in a manner that is analogous to historical science. Also, as I see it, ID functions in a manner that is similar to what Kuhn describes in his discussion of paradigms.

  29. Darrel Falk - #2346

    January 11th 2010

    cont.

    So to me the question is not, is this science? I think it can be viewed that way. To me the question is how good is this science? To be very frank, and I’m picking up my coffee cup again, it is really bad science. I think many people had hopes for it 15 years ago. However, as more books have come out and even some papers have been written, it is clear that the biology that is being done is about as poor as one can imagine. Much of the biology is so poorly researched (in my humble opinion) that it would not be worthy of an undergraduate honors thesis in a biology department.

    I shudder to say this, because unlike John, I really do believe these folk are sincere brothers and sisters. However, I owe it to the Church to let people know…if this is science (and I think it is) it is science at its poorest.

    Darrel

  30. Glen Davidson - #2353

    January 11th 2010

    I think that ID could be science, or at least close enough to science that there’s little need to argue about it.

    But clearly they’re not starting with a meaningful design cause(s) and making entailed predictions from that (those).  Indeed, when you try to inject something like this, such as asking whether life’s development indicates foresight, rationality, and/or purpose, they complain that you’re “doing theology” (which doesn’t keep Meyer from claiming that the “Designer” is an adept program in certain venues).

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  31. Glen Davidson - #2355

    January 11th 2010

    Continuing from #2353:

    Looking at life and saying that it’s complex and that somehow ID predicts that and nothing normally known from designers can only be considered to be pseudoscience in my opinion.  It’s a pretense at science, for it avoids entailment—knowing that would lead to falsification, claims that historical sciences are fundamentally different than chemistry and physics (no, they all dovetail together), avoids their duty to explain what present theories do, operates on a level of loose analogy that is not appropriate to science (but is familiar in religion), and try to say that ID predicts complexity without having any kind of causal process identified which would lead to such phenomena.

    I can see nothing in it that amounts to even bad science.  Paley came up with something that might be faulted as science, given the way it cherry picks evidence, but was at least a hypothesis that could readily be considered by science.  Today’s ID tries to subvert the normal practice of testing entailed predictions.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  32. Charlie - #2356

    January 11th 2010

    Try to look at this from a different perspective.  Millions of years in the future, a fossil of today’s frog or salamander could be considered the transition from water to land.  We have to remember that evolution goes at different rates.  If there is no pressure on a species forcing it to adapt, it will not change that much.  Just look at the croc or shark.

  33. Charlie - #2359

    January 11th 2010

    To pds - #2295,

    You can disprove theories.  It happens all the time (geocentric universe, the atom is the smallest fundamental unit, etc.)

  34. John Kwok - #2361

    January 11th 2010

    @ Darrel -

    Not only have I read “Signature”, but I obtained a free copy from Meyer’s HarperOne publicist for the purpose of writing an Amazon.com review (which is posted along with yours BTW). If I hadn’t read Meyer’s book, then how would I be able to criticize his erroneous conception of biology as, strictly speaking, a “historical” science and question his contention that Intelligent Design is scientific because it is capable of producing testable scientific hypotheses (e. g. his arguments about assessing “deviations” from perfect Design).

    Oh sure, I may slide in a comment or two with sarcasm about Klingons, but I am doing so for valid reasons, merely to illustrate the ample breathtaking inanity seen from not only Meyer’s work, but sadly, from virtually all of his acolytes here.

  35. karl Giberson - #2366

    January 11th 2010

    Kwok is Kwazy

    John:  I am amazed that you continue to think that hyperbolic rhetoric is helpful. All it is, is interesting. There are people I read and listen to that I find entertaining because of their rhetoric.  Ann Coulter is one of my favorites.  She seems incredibly wrong on everything, but she writes over the top so I read her like I would listen to a Sat nite live skit—expecting zero illumination, but lots of fun.  Glenn Beck is the same. 

    It might be interesting to call ID “mendacious intellectual pornography” but do you think anyone actually learns anything useful from that characterization?  And, when Newton and Kepler made ID arguments, were they being intellectually pornographic?

  36. karl Giberson - #2367

    January 11th 2010

    ID as science

    What is the status of theories that have been refuted, or abandoned by science?  This is an interesting question, with no clear answer.  It is widely accepted that Darwin refuted Paley.  Now Paley was an ID guy so, if Darwin’s science refutes Paley’s ID, does that mean that ID had to be science?

    By Karl Popper’s falsification criteria “irreducible complexity” is clearly scientific.  Ken Miller and others have at least partially refuted several of Behe’s case studies so Behe’s ideas were at least falsifiable. Of course, Popper is just one referee and maybe not the best one.

    I think a better question is whether things are “true” or not.

  37. Unapologetic Catholic - #2371

    January 11th 2010

    “I think a better question is whether things are “true” or not.”

    That is Larry Laudan’s position as well.  So it may not be usedful to put ID in a particular category of “failed science,”  “proto-science,” or psuedo science” and it is possible for ID to be in some or all of these categories at the same time.

    The actual post, however, by Dennis Falk pretty much says that some ID proponents are misrepresenting the science. 

    That is unquestinably “true.” 

    This pattern of misrepresentation has been going for so long that John Kwok for one considers the msirepresentaiton to be intentional.

    Others are perhaps more forgiving and consider the misrepsresentations to be merely ineptitude.

    Eitehr way, Dennis Falk appears to be calling upon all scientists of integrity to identify this consistent misrepersnwation for what it is—disregarding motive if necessary. 

    I agree with his clarion call.

  38. John Kwok - #2374

    January 11th 2010

    Karl -

    Of course there is the question as to whether Intelligent Design creationism itself was ever a valid portion of science. After reading Philip Kitcher’s cogent, terse, and brilliant, “Living with Darwin”, I am convinced that it should be seen as “dead science”, as a scientific idea which was once useful to the likes of Kepler and Newton, but, as I have noted, was discarded and refuted by genuine “scientific” creationists like Darwin’s Cambridge geology professor, Adam Sedgwick. Since it is “dead science”, I don’t think there is any need to give it its due, especially when its ongoing interest in “biological information” - which Darrel has mentioned as its most positive aspect - has been rejected soundly by credible mathematicians such as Jeffrey Shallit (who may have been on Dembski’s Ph. D. dissertation committee at the University of Chicago’s mathematics department).

  39. John Kwok - #2375

    January 11th 2010

    Karl -

    I hope you were merely kidding when you dubbed me “krazy”, because I don’t want to think that both you and Darrel may be delusional in your partially positive assessment of some in the Intelligent Design community, even those at the Discovery Institute whom you regard as reasonable. May I suggest that you and the rest of BioLogos resist the temptation of seeking such ties, since there are many others - not only the Militant Atheists (my term for the New Atheists) - who might view BioLogos as a stealth ally of the Discovery Institute (Indeed that very point has been discussed over at Panda’s Thumb at some length, and I am sure both Glen Davidson and beaglelady would confirm this as well.).

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

  40. Glen Davidson - #2376

    January 11th 2010

    I did not address the question of whether or not “irreducible complexity” (IC) is falsifiable, and gave the reason why I didn’t—it isn’t entailed by ID.  At all.  How could it be, when they have no identified, or even defined, cause?

    It is sometimes addressed by biologists because conceivably irreducible complexity in life could falsify evolution (depending on how it’s defined, and whether or not scaffolding is considered to produce “irreducible complexity”).  Only the false dilemma that ID relies upon (if not evolution, then design) is supposed to relate IC to ID, but, since it’s a false dilemma, it does not.

    I did not use forms of “entail” in my comment superfluously.

    Glen Davidson

  41. Darrel Falk - #2377

    January 11th 2010

    John,  ( Re: 2375)

    We are indeed “stealth allies” in the cause that matters most of all in life.  Most of the DI people along with all of us here at BioLogos accept the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as being that from which we draw meaning in our lives.  This is so central to our purpose in life…indeed it is that alone which gives us purpose….that there is a bond between us that cannot be broken. 

    So if the people over at Panda’s Thumb see us as allies they are seeing us through a special lens.  I’m delighted to see them looking through it.

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  42. John Kwok - #2378

    January 11th 2010

    @ Darrel -

    As Barbara Forrest has noted in her writings apart from, of course, “Creationism’s Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design”, the Discovery Institute is an organization with a crypto - Fascist agenda, which has received ample financial support from one wealthy contributor, Howard Ahmanson Jr., a notorious Christian Reconstructionist, who has supported many Far Right Christian “Taliban” movements and individuals for years.

    Are you certain that you want BioLogos to admit to being a “stealth ally” of an organization, the Discovery Institute, with clear-cut, well documented ties to the Fundamentalist Christian Right; an organization which has far more in common with the likes of Trotsky and Goebbels than it does with Jefferson, Adams and Franklin IMHO (I would appreciate it very much if your webmaster leaves this post of mine alone, especially when I am pointing out a most uncomfortable truth regarding the Discovery Institute.).

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

    P. S. I may quote you over at Panda’s Thumb. So you might want to rephrase what you’ve written.

  43. Mere_Christian - #2379

    January 11th 2010

    In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

    1 Acts 1:1-3

    Darrel, is that stuff that Luke wrote, really the equal of anything Gene Roddenberry created?

  44. beaglelady - #2381

    January 11th 2010

    If ID is science, what does ID research look like?  If ID is science, is it legal to teach it in public schools as such?

  45. John Kwok - #2382

    January 11th 2010

    @ Darrel -

    The DI staff’s “acceptance” of Christ is one that insists that science and religion be intertwined inextricably, with any true “Christian scientist” doing both simultaneously. That is a most absurd position to take, especially when one considers the views of “mainstream” Christian scientists like Brown University cell biologist Kenneth R. Miller and Vatican Astronomer - and Jesuit Brother - Guy Consolmagno. I have heard both say, in public, that, as professional scientists, their scientific views are paramount, with no consideration at all of their religious beliefs (It is only when they are not working as scientists will they think of their religious beliefs.). I have known and worked alongside other religiously devout scientists who would agree with Miller and Consolmagno’s observations. Those who would disagree happen to be Discovery Institute “scientists” and other so-called “scientific creationists”.

    Again, is this a valid position for you and BioLogos to find yourselves to be sympathetic to? I most certainly hope not.

  46. John Kwok - #2384

    January 11th 2010

    @ Mere_Christian -

    Of course the “gospel” of Gene Roddenberry is more important than Saint Luke’s. It’s been so ordained as “holy writ” in the religious documents of the Klingons, Bajorans and Romulans. After all, there is a reason why Roddenberry was known as “The Great Bird of the Galaxy”.

  47. beaglelady - #2386

    January 11th 2010

    Incidentally, the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity is coming up very soon; it runs from the Feast of the Confession of Saint Peter (January 18) through the Feast of the Conversion of Saint Paul (January 25). That said, I think the DI should be upfront about their real agenda—getting their religious views taught in public school science classrooms.

  48. karl Giberson - #2387

    January 11th 2010

    John:

    I would not say that BioLogos is a “stealth ally” of the DI.  But a shared belief in God as creator is significant.  Nevertheless, we are trying to promote strong science so we must critique them on their science, which is close to non-existent.  I just watched Darwin’s Dilemma, a DVD produced by the DI and was quite dismayed at the presentation.  Simon Conway Morris was “packaged” to look like an ID guy; Paul Nelson waxed eloquent about the “suddenness” of a Cambrian Explosion that he does not believe in, since he is a young earth creationist who rejects the geological epochs; and there were other examples that looked like attempts to mislead.

    But I know these guys and they are not sinister characters.  They have simply gotten caught up in a political cause that is carrying them along in ways that they may not even understand themselves.

  49. John Kwok - #2390

    January 12th 2010

    Karl -

    I have been subjected to an online witch hunt from Bill Dembski over at Amazon.com. And David Klinghoffer - a fellow alumnus of Brown University - has referred to me in “third person” as an “obsessed Darwinist” over at his Discovery Institute blog. If Dembski and Klinghoffer can do this to someone who is relatively unknown, then what else can one expect from the Discovery Institute? A lot more, unfortunately, and what I have noted in my two most recent posts, merely scratches the tip of the iceberg IMHO.

    John

  50. Gordon J. Glover - #2410

    January 12th 2010

    @beaglelady - #2381

    “If ID is science, is it legal to teach it in public schools as such?”

    I would answer that even though the holocaust denier is ‘doing history’ - it is bad history.  And we are not obligated to confuse impressionable young minds with ideas that are poorly researched, unsubstantiated, or politically motivated by teaching them everything that lies at the fringes of an academic discipline.

    ID hasn’t even come close to earning a broad scientific consensus.  Not only would they have to demonstrate that ‘design’ has more explanatory and predictive power than the modern synthesis (sometheing they can do right now with existing data sets like genebank), but they would also have to solve the mind-body problem and demonstrate how an unidentified immaterial conciousness could manipulate organic macromolecules to create a suite of essential genes and DNA-replicating machinery.  After all, ‘design’ solves nothing without a viable causal mechanism by which a mind can act.  And unless the ID movement wants to jump on the panspermia bandwagon, they are left with trying explain, under the guise of science, how a deity perfroms miracles.

  51. Brian - #2415

    January 12th 2010

    Karl @ 2367

    “Ken Miller and others have at least partially refuted several of Behe’s case studies”

    Citations please.

  52. Brian - #2416

    January 12th 2010

    Karl,
    There will always be folks in these conversations who believe that stridency, hyperbole and name-calling constitutes argument.  While I appreciate your efforts, you may have noticed that appeals to reason only increased the volume, providing more heat and less light.  You may of course do what you will, but I myself gave up when “Klingon Cosmology” was invoked as a point of argument.

  53. Mere_Christian - #2417

    January 12th 2010

    @John Kwok - #2384

    “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    - Jesus

    (Words for BioLogos staff to live by.)

    To those that believe in Jesus, this is good advice when dealing with those so enamored of themselves that they so effortlessly and ignorantly compare Christians to FASCISTS and TALIBAN terrorists.

    Kwok, please keep to your word about my posts. (A nobleman speaking to a “troll?”) if you would be so “respectful.”  A person so eminent and morally and intellectually expansive as you present yourself to be, shouldn’t lower tehmselves to comment to such an average simpleton such as I.

    I like it better when you turn your infidelsdotorgishness on the BioLogos staff.

  54. John Kwok - #2420

    January 12th 2010

    @ Karl -

    Take a look at Ian Musgrave’s work, Jerry Coyne’s, as well as Ken Miller’s with respect to irreducible complexity. All three have refuted virtually all - if not all - of Behe’s risible notion of Irreducible Complexity, which, I might add, was proposed originally by someone else back in 1918 and ignored. In particular, look at Behe’s understanding of the bacterial flagellum and also see how Behe has twisted and distorted published work on it in order to use that work to support his concept replete in its breathtaking inanity (For example, I spoke last fall to Yale University microbiologist Jorge Galan, who mentioned to me that Behe had misinterpreted work done by Galan’s team back in the early 2000s as “proof” of irreducible complexity in the bacerial flagellum
    (This is yet another example of the rampant deceit practiced daily by Behe and his fellow Discovery Institute mendacious intellectual pornographers).

    Sincerely,

    John

    P. S. Peter Enns asked me to provide specific examples of Dembski’s sinister behavior. I suggest you, Peter and Darrel look carefully at them.

  55. AusAdrian - #2423

    January 12th 2010

    @ John Kwok
    In any other forum, I would say, “John Kwok, you are god”. That wouldn’t be appropriate in this forum, but in Australia it would just mean that you are to be applauded on your intellect. I found your writings so refreshing and reinforcing.

    I have always been worried about how so called “Christians” can be so dishonest and deceitful in their writings. DI constantly misrepresents “The Theory of Evolution”. To say it is just a “theory”, is to display an ignorance of the status of scientific theory.

    Secondly, why should we waste time in schools teaching ID? Do we waste time with the “flat earthers” in Geology classes? What about the “geocentric” in astronomy classes? Do they deserve equal time?

    Thanks again John.

  56. John Kwok - #2427

    January 12th 2010

    @ AusAdrian -

    Thanks for adding a substantial level of sanity to this discussion. I greatly appreciate your comments.

  57. AusAdrian - #2434

    January 12th 2010

    @Gregory Arago -

    Trotsky and Goebbel influenced many people with propaganda. They were ruthless in their suppression of alternative views. I think John Kwok has evidence of the ruthless nature of repression within DI. Thus such a comparision is made.

    John Kwok must be taken seriously, as he backs up his statements with facts.

    I commend the moderater on allowing such discourse to take place.

    There are limits to tolerance, but a moderated forum of words is hardly comparable to the the mass exposure of DI to thousands of christians via DVD, etc.

    Just checked before I posted this comment. Went from #2423 to #2427 and then no more. My response was for @Gregory Arago, which has been removed.

  58. John Kwok - #2438

    January 12th 2010

    Karl (continued) -

    Here’s Dembski admitting that he contacted the Federal Department of Homeland Security regarding Pianka’s comments, falsely accusing Pianka as a potential “bioterrorist”:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/eric-pianka-time-for-an-interview-with-the-department-of-homeland-security/

    Here’s Wikipedia’s take regarding Forrest Mims’s appraisal of Pianka’s comments, including his contact with Dembski:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mims-Pianka_controversy

    Here’s David Bolinsky, the president of the science animation video firm that produced the Harvard University cell animation video “thanking” Dembski for admitting to his theft:

    http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/04/david-bolinsky.html

    And here’s more over at Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_controversies_of_Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed

    There are credible reports that Dover Area School District had to pay $20,000 to Dembski as a potential witness for the defense, even though he opted not to appear at the Kitzmiller vs. Dover trial.

  59. John Kwok - #2439

    January 12th 2010

    @ Gregory -

    Anyone who looks objectively at my list of Dembski’s repugnant behavior (see above), should conclude that his conduct mirrors Trotsky and Goebbels, as AusAdrian has noted. Regrettably, Dembski is not alone in such conduct, which seems to be the daily modus operandi of the Discovery Institute.

    When will you answer these questions, please (Yes or No shall suffice):

    1) Do you recognize, as scientific fact, biological evolution?

    2) Do you recognize the Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution, as the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory that exists now that accounts for the scientific fact of biological evolution?

  60. Unapologetic Catholic - #2441

    January 12th 2010

    Karl,

    First, let me thank you for your efforts.

    You said:

    “I just watched Darwin’s Dilemma, a DVD produced by the DI and was quite dismayed at the presentation.  Simon Conway Morris was “packaged” to look like an ID guy; Paul Nelson waxed eloquent about the “suddenness” of a Cambrian Explosion that he does not believe in, since he is a young earth creationist who rejects the geological epochs; and there were other examples that looked like attempts to mislead.

    But I know these guys and they are not sinister characters.”

    Would you agree that fellow Christians may find your observations in these paragraphs irreconcilable and reasonably differ with you regarding the good faith of the Discovery institute?

  61. beaglelady - #2442

    January 12th 2010

    Gordon,

    Thanks so much for your response.  I agree with you that of course we should teach the scientific consensus.  I’m just afraid that if ID is labeled as science, even as poor science,  it will make teaching it legal.  That would give the DI just what they need to legally slip it into the curriculum, say as “teaching the controversy” or “academic freedom” etc.

    I can only imagine what all those hard-working, dedicated high school biology teachers are thinking if they are following this!

  62. Brian - #2443

    January 12th 2010

    Darrell,

    Thanks for the post.  You quote Collins as saying,  “The evidence <deleted to save space>...a fact.”

    There are (at least) two parts to it:
    1- “descended from a common ancestor,” which is fairly clear.  As much as many folks might want to reduce the discussion to a very rigid black-white, us-them dichotemy (and these people exist on both sides of the ideological aisle), there are at least some (Behe, most notably) in the ID camp who hold to common descent. 

    2- “the theory of evolution,” which is not so clear.  For many (again, on both sides), this also includes the notion of philosophical naturalism, which I take it you guys, being theists, don’t agree with. 

    So, a question:  what scientific evidence is there that evolution has been guided, controlled, or perhaps influenced (but not designed?) either by God or by some other intelligent force?  I’m particuarly interested in how you might speak to the “time-chance-and-undirected-natural-law-can-do-it-all” view that is so often incorporated into most mainstream definitions of evolution. 

    Thnx,

  63. pds - #2445

    January 12th 2010

    Karl,

    You said

    Nevertheless, we are trying to promote strong science so we must critique them on their science, which is close to non-existent.  I just watched Darwin’s Dilemma, a DVD produced by the DI and was quite dismayed at the presentation.  Simon Conway Morris was “packaged” to look like an ID guy; Paul Nelson waxed eloquent about the “suddenness” of a Cambrian Explosion that he does not believe in, since he is a young earth creationist who rejects the geological epochs; and there were other examples that looked like attempts to mislead.

    Most of your critique is based on your subjective impressions.  I strongly disagree that Conway Morris was packaged as an “ID guy.”  In fact, the film is effective because he is presented as a leading expert (which he is) and not as an ID guy.

    You claim that “their science ... is close to non-existent” but you cite no factual errors in the film.  That is a pretty insulting comment with no back up.  The film is full of science and it is all pretty accurate as far as I can tell.  Can you give some precise examples of scientific errors?

  64. Gregory Arago - #2449

    January 12th 2010

    “I have always been worried about how so called “Christians” can be so dishonest and deceitful in their writings.” - AusAdrian

    Does it appear that BioLogos is an appropriate place to discuss such things?

  65. John Kwok - #2451

    January 12th 2010

    @ Gregory -

    “Does it appear that BioLogos is an appropriate place to discuss such things?”

    Indeed it does. Not surprisingly, I strongly endorse AusAdrian’s remarks.

    Am still waiting for you to reply to the questins I have posed to you for days, of which the latest variant is noted above (#2439). I would appreciate a prompt reply finally.

  66. beaglelady - #2452

    January 12th 2010

    UC,

    I think that it’s very, very hard if not impossible to acknowledge that people you regard as brothers in Christ might also be just plain liars, to put it bluntly.

  67. Gregory Arago - #2463

    January 12th 2010

    No, since you *still* didn’t answer my question, John. Please say you can’t or won’t, if that is your decision.

    What is an example of something (other than God or other real supernatural things) that doesn’t evolve?

    To a former ‘evolutionary biologist’ who believes that ‘nothing makes sense except in the light of evolution,’ the idea of ‘universalizing evolutionism’ is probably normal. And you used to be an evolutionary biologist, John, so this is probably how you see things. In biology, out of biology, what’s the big difference, right? Everything changes!

    To non-biologists, however, many things in the world ‘make sense *outside* the light of evolution.’

    This is not rocket science and shouldn’t be difficult for people to admit.

  68. John Kwok - #2470

    January 12th 2010

    Corrections:

    Gregory Arago -

    Well, let’s see:

    1) Leica M rangefinder camera - though there have been at least a dozen different models since the Leica M3 was introduced back in 1954, the camera has remained basically unchanged until the recent introductions of the Leica M8 and M9 digital rangefinder cameras

    2) State of American science education - has gotten worse, with no thanks to your creationist “friends”.

    3) Nikon F mount - which has remained unchanged for all Nikon SLRs - including digital SLRs - since the very first Nikon F SLR was made back in 1959.

    4) “classic ” view camera - of various film formats consists of a bag bellows, lens board and film holder, and these have remained essentailly unchanged since the middle of the 19th Century.

    That’s just for starters for this former evolutionary biologist. Now answer my questions.

  69. John Kwok - #2472

    January 12th 2010

    Corrected post (Webmaster you can delete # 2471, but my warning stays in effect for this one.):

    Gregory Arago -

    I don’t believe in “universalizing evolutionism”. I’m far more practical and pragmatic. In fact, I’m so practical and pragmatic, that these are two of the reasons why I love the Klingons. Why? When their GODs began to meddle too much in their lives, the Klingons killed their GODS or had them banished permanently from the Klingon homeworld, Qo’nos.

    (Note to Webmaster: If you delete this comment, you are doing so at yours and BioLogos’s peril. Will report it to others and have it so noted elsewhere online.).

  70. Gregory Arago - #2488

    January 12th 2010

    Translate into English please John. In #2470 the word ‘evolve’ is missing.

    I’m looking for examples of ‘things that don’t evolve.’

    Are you saying that ‘cameras’ and ‘American education’ don’t evolve?

    p.s. though I am not a ‘creationist’ or an ‘atheist’ there is little problem being ‘friends’ with either of such folks

  71. John Kwok - #2491

    January 12th 2010

    @ Gregory Arago -

    Don’t mince words with me. IMHO, judging from your comments, you are an ID creationist. Why don’t you just admit it? You still refuse to answer the two questions I have raised again and again.
    Why, if you don’t mind my asking?

    American science education is not in a state of “evolution”, but rather, “regression”. And I think I pointed out how and why, in the case of both Leica rangefinder cameras (the current M-mount) and the Nikon F SLR mount, cameras don’t evolve.

  72. AusAdrian - #2492

    January 12th 2010

    @Gregory Arago-
    I’m not sure what you mean by “other real supernatural things”.
    Things are either real or supernatural, not both.
    Also, you won’t answer John’s question until he answers yours. Interesting.
    An example of something that doesn’t evolve. A rock. An individual mosquito. (Evolution is a population phenomenon). Are you equating the “evolution” of the modern motor car, which is clearly the result of “intelligent design”, with the evolution of vanco resistant enterococcus.

  73. Gregory Arago - #2496

    January 12th 2010

    Thank you, John. Now I can answer your questions. Tomorrow.

    @AusAdrian

    Sure, supernatural can be real. Why not?

    Bio - Life.

    Logos - God’s word, reason, order.

    The people behind this site (along with a majority of human beings on the planet, according to social surveys) believe that “God created the heavens and the earth.” That’s both supernatural and real. It doesn’t matter if one can or cannot ‘prove’ it in the ‘modern western scientific’ meaning of ‘proof.’ This is what we believe - supernatural *and* real.

    I thank you, nonetheless, for answering a question that Gordon J. Glover wouldn’t, and that beaglelady dodged, and that finally John Kwok has now answered.

    I’ll address that tomorrow.

    Cheers, Gregory

  74. AusAdrian - #2497

    January 12th 2010

    @Gregory Arago-
    Thanks for your reply. I see your point, although as a western biology teacher, don’t agree with it. Nonetheless, thanks for your perspective.

  75. Gordon J. Glover - #2498

    January 12th 2010

    “I’ll address that tomorrow.”  Now I won’t be able to sleep tonignt.

  76. beaglelady - #2504

    January 12th 2010

    Now I won’t be able to sleep tonignt.

    That’s because your wife is leaving you. (Because of your engineering degree.)

  77. beaglelady - #2505

    January 12th 2010

    I thank you, nonetheless, for answering a question that Gordon J. Glover wouldn’t, and that beaglelady dodged…

    Gregory,

    I gave you an answer a while ago. My answer was that God doesn’t evolve.  Then you persisted in needling me for more answers and refused to provide your CORRECT ANSWERS©.  You also didn’t provide me with the requested list of words that might set you off as the e-word does. So I got tired of playing. Besides, if you want to pose riddles, why don’t you audition to sing Turandot at the Met? 

    <h3>“Any man who desires to wed Turandot must first answer her three riddles. If he fails, he will be beheaded”</h3>

  78. beaglelady - #2506

    January 12th 2010

    When their GODs began to meddle too much in their lives, the Klingons killed their GODS or drove off the Klingon homeworld Qo’nos.

    Just one question, Captain John T. Kwok:

    How many Klingons can dance on the head of a pin?

  79. John Kwok - #2510

    January 12th 2010

    @ Beaglelady -

    Henceforth, please address me as Starfleet Commander/Grand Nagus John T. Kwok. Just kidding of course….

    Haven’t the foggiest idea how many Klingons can dance on the head of a pin? Reminds me of the question, “How many Brown students does it take to screw in a lightbulb? The correct answer is ten; one to screw it and nine to share in the experience.”

    Live Long and Prosper,

    John

  80. John Kwok - #2511

    January 12th 2010

    @ Gordon (# 2498) -

    Now that’s going to give me nightmares. Until I saw Gregory’s post, I had visions of Bill Dembski being chased by a pack of hungry velociraptors in “Jurassic Park V: Intelligent Design on Trial”.

  81. Gregory Arago - #2578

    January 13th 2010

    Answer to my views of eVo biology:

    “Darwin’s theory was good biology which was perverted by others to support bad sociology.” – T. Dobzhansky

    As a non-biologist I am not qualified to evaluate the field of ‘evolutionary biology,’ or biology in general. I must trust those *in* the field & accept the grammar they choose. So, I accept Darrel’s & John’s (& AusAdrian’s) authority, or at least, respect the sovereignty of their realm.

    I am *not* an ‘ID creationist’ & would appreciate not being harassed with this label.

    L. Margulis is a ‘post-Darwinist’ biologist, says ‘Darwinism’ is closed-minded. M. Denton opposes ‘Darwinian mechanisms.’ Let’s not pretend there’s *no controversy* surrounding ‘evolution’ in biology. Behe is just 1 IDist among others seeking to move biology forward. M. Gene sees ‘teleology’ in evolution using ‘design’.

    We’ll see @ biology, one field in the Academy that currently undergoes immense changes, e.g. “The Language of God” (2006).

    That said, I believe in ‘Creation’ & in ‘creativity’ and in ‘design’ in so far as I see it in many ways & places around me. Those who deny *all* ‘design’ are obviously blind.

  82. Gregory Arago - #2579

    January 13th 2010

    Is there a credible ‘science’ of ‘intelligent design’? No. It appears that IDists take seriously some ideas, such as ‘pattern recognition’ & ‘information specification,’ more than do many biologists.

    There are 7 PhDs or Masters of Biology held by D.I. Fellows (10 higher degrees in Philosophy & 7 in Theology). They were educated at some of the top universities in America.

    One MAJOR issue often ignored by natural scientists is ‘scientism.’ K. Giberson is a good exception & should be credited for his work. If Biologos supported science ‘above’ philosophy or religion it would spell its doom. Thankfully, Drs. Falk & Giberson don’t do this and rather seek a balance between these three.

    S. Meyer is a thoughtful, Cambridge educated scholar in HPS. There is no doubt imho that he would ‘wipe the floor’ with anyone here who challenged him *within* HPS. I challenge Karl Giberson to have a closed thread discussion with Meyer at BioLogos @ Signature in the Cell.

    Biologos’ position now seems more anti-ID than pro-anything else. I’ve yet to see what + contribution BioLogos can offer other than to suggest “there is *no* conflict between science & religion.” Everyone knows this is a simplistic perspective!

  83. Gregory Arago - #2583

    January 13th 2010

    BioLogos does not currently have an HPS specialist in its ranks. Why is this?

    Dr. Falk says ID-biology is ‘poorly researched.’ What does this say about the Institutions that gave PhDs to IDM personnel?

    ~
    ‘Evolution’ is more a problem in how it is used in human-social sciences than how it is used in natural-physical sciences.

    Miller (beaglelady’s link) writes:
    “everyone knows that evolution, in a sense, is change over time.”

    Strike one: bad philosophy. Evolution is a type of change, but change is the master category.

    ‘Nature’ is not an ‘agent.’ There is no ‘choice’ by a non-conscious entity. Human-social scientists trump natural-physical scientists on ‘the character of consciousness.’

    ~
    How does J. Kwok measure or identify ‘divine action’ of the deity in which he believes? Is his God an impotent God or one who could & indeed does intervene in natural and social history? Dr. Falk says BioLogos people agree with most IDM people in the most important way; their faith in God.

    If ‘science,’ as an imperfect ‘way’ of knowing, disagrees with ‘faith,’ is it possible that sometimes faith & not science should be deemed the more important?

  84. Unapologetic Catholic - #2584

    January 13th 2010

    I give up.  Wha tis an HPS specialist.

    “There are 7 PhDs or Masters of Biology held by D.I. Fellows (10 higher degrees in Philosophy & 7 in Theology).”

    Realy?  Who has a Ph.D in Biology?  Theologians of course are not generally qualified to opine on biology at the doctorate level.

    I exclude all Ph. D philosphers including this one: “Stephen C. Meyer is director and Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute, in Seattle.

    Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of Science.”

  85. Unapologetic Catholic - #2592

    January 13th 2010

    Ahh, I think I figured it out out: “History and Philosophy of Science.”  Meyer is a piker.

    “S. Meyer is a thoughtful, Cambridge educated scholar in HPS. There is no doubt imho that he would ‘wipe the floor’ with anyone here who challenged him *within* HPS.”

    Not true, he was wiped in the Kitzmiller Trial by Robert Pennock, who testifed under oath. 

    https://www.msu.edu/~pennock5/research/papers/Pennock_DoverExptRpt.pdf

    Curiuusly, Meyer was absent.  He didn’t testify at trial although given the opportunity.  He would have been shredded on cross examination as were all of the ID experts and he was smart enough to know it and stay away from the dbacle.

    Instead the Discovery Institute attemtpted to sneak his testimony in as an exhibit—a move harshly cricized and correctly rejected by the trial judge.

    ID proponents are adverse to testifying under oath.  They can’t refuse to answer embarrassing questions in a courtroom and very few will risk their reputations by doing so.

  86. beaglelady - #2632

    January 14th 2010

    Behe is just 1 IDist among others seeking to move biology forward.

    That sounds good. What specifically ID-related research is he or others doing?  What does ID research look like, anyway?  How do you seal off the designer from experiments, as a control?

  87. Gregory Arago - #2671

    January 15th 2010

    Fair questions, beaglelady. As a human-social scientist, it is admittedly impossible to “seal off the designer from experiments.” I am and must be intimately involved with the ‘object’ of my research, in so far as ‘design’ or ‘making’ (e.g. homo faber) or ‘composition’ or ‘construction’ or any number of other concepts go. The ID people imho have simply ‘got it wrong’ to rigidly insist that their concept duo of choice belongs *first in biology* and is thus ‘scientific’. And they tend to be far too anti-Darwin!

    But then again, perhaps Meyer’s book looks beyond Darwin’s paradigm by speaking about ‘origins of life’?

    As for research, probably a survey of D. Axe and his institute is a better place to start. But then again, I’m not a biologist (and thankfully not!!). Are you a biologist or other scholar, beaglelady?

  88. beaglelady - #2682

    January 15th 2010

    I’m neither a biologist nor a scholar,  but I would like to know what specifically ID-related research is going on, and exactly what ID research looks like.  How is Behe moving biology forward?

  89. unapologetic Catholic - #2690

    January 15th 2010

    “As for research, probably a survey of D. Axe and his institute is a better place to start.”

    Been there, perhaps? 

    Only “pretend research” is being done at that location.

    http://www.biologicinstitute.org/

    The Biologic Institute is a perfect place to start with ID research. 

    Number of peer reviewed papers produced since 2006:  0

    Number of Irreducibly complex structures identified since 2006:  0

    Calcualations of complex specified informaiton observed in biological systems since 2006:  0

    Total scientific output of the Biologic Institute since its inception: 0

  90. Steve Greene - #2724

    January 15th 2010

    Creationist literature has always thrived on conjuring up mountains of crises out of anthills of new scientific that actually makes the picture of evolutionary history clearer than before. Anything that is not *exactly* as was expected prior to the new data is portrayed as another crisis leading to the imminent demise of evolution in science. Creationists have only been doing this for over a hundred years, claiming the imminent demise of evolution for over a hundred years based on one alleged “crisis” after another. It does indeed demonstrate the incompetence of creationist thinking in regard to how science works. Whether this is “not fair to the Church” is disputable, since in fact religious beliefs are based on faith, not science, and it is the nature of the religious faith of a lot of religious believers that scientific contradiction of their particular religious beliefs is simply intolerable to their particular faith. However, the creationist rhetoric certainly does “dishonor the discipline” of science. But that’s what creationist rhetoric is, so it’s not going to cease until the nature of creationist thinking itself is fundamentally changed. But then it wouldn’t be creationism any more.

  91. Gregory Arago - #2847

    January 17th 2010

    Hello again beaglelady,

    Like you, I’d also like to know what ID research looks like! : )

    Imre Lakatos partly measured ‘science’ by whether or not it has a ‘research program.’

    IDists claim that they do. Where’s the proof? Or is it still forthcoming?

    I’d also like to know how Denton and Marguilis, in addition to Behe are moving biology forward. Lynn Margulis spoke here in September with a triumphant tone, claiming that ‘western’ biologists simply didn’t understand things and that her views have won 3 out of 4 challenges. The 4th is still a hold-out by ‘western’ publishers. She is confident that non-western views will be proven true.

    @unapologetic Catholic

    Have you really visited Biologic Institute? Fascinated to hear your views.

    And are you a biologist or a biology-interpreter, or…?

  92. Gregory Arago - #2848

    January 17th 2010

    Unapologetic Catholic-

    What I mean is that some ‘science’ simply cannot be done in 2 or 3 years. It might take 10 or 15 or 50 years. So, please don’t sell short on Biologic Institute already. It is too early!

    About D. Axe, have you met him? He seems like a scholar with intellectual integrity who is honestly trying to solve problems of the ‘natural’ world. He is not a ‘creationist.’ His ideas are rather interesting with respect to the ‘language’ of the DNA. Do you dismiss him simply because he is affiliated with the DI?

    BioLogos draws upon F. Collins’ phrase ‘the language of God.’ Perhaps Axe is simply trying to understand this and it might take a person their whole life and more to do so.

    As for me, I am not a biologist and don’t make any pretence to understand what Axe is or is not contributing in this respective scholarly realm. What’s your link to biology?

  93. beaglelady - #2850

    January 17th 2010

    How is Dr. Behe moving biology forward?

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