Evolution, Design and History

January 8, 2010
Category: Guest Features

Evolution, Design and History

"Science and the Sacred" is pleased to feature essays from various guest voices in the science-and-religion dialogue. Today's entry was written by Gordon J. Glover. Gordon J. Glover holds degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Ocean Engineering and is the author of Beyond the Firmament: Understanding Science and Creation. A veteran of the U.S. Navy, he now resides in the Washington, D.C. area where he works and runs the popular blog, "Beyond the Firmament".

Recently while visiting family in South Texas, I was jogging through an old neighborhood and noticed something very interesting. Along this particular street, there was a track on one side and a row of homes on the other side. To my surprise, the curb along the track was interrupted every hundred feet or so by concrete structures that appeared to be driveways. But unlike the driveways on the other side of the street that terminate at garages and carports, these driveways terminated just beyond a chain-link fence (see picture).

Let’s think about this: driveways are designed to allow vehicular access from the street, but fences are designed to keep traffic out. So what kind of intelligent designer would put short driveways under a fence that terminate at grass? The question is obviously rhetorical since there never was a deliberate plan to create such features. In other words, nobody woke up one day and said, “I think it would be neat to put partial driveways along a field and block them with a fence.” In fact, that side of the street was once lined with houses just like the other side. The school across the field annexed the land next to it, leveled the houses, built a track, and put a fence around it. Since reworking the curb and concrete ramps for cosmetic purposes would have consumed valuable resources, the school simply left the vestigial driveway pieces in place. Mystery solved.

But what if somebody wanted to believe instead that the street, the house, the track, the chain-link fence, and the useless driveways were all designed and built just as they are today? In other words, what if these useless driveway-like structures were the result of deliberate planning rather than circumstance? For the history denier, there must be a valid reason to build driveways that terminate in grass under fences. Perhaps when it rains, the water drains off the field faster because these structures act like culverts? Heck, it’s possible that engineers even considered this benefit when the decision was made to leave the old driveways in place. But regardless of their newly adapted function, nobody in their right mind would argue that these vestigial driveways were optimized for drainage. In fact, when we do find structures specifically designed for drainage, they look different than this. So despite the obvious fact that our vestigial driveways are nearly identical to the functional driveways across the street, the history denier must still claim that these relics of neighborhood evolution are culverts designed specifically to facilitate drainage.

If loss of personal credibility were the only consequence of denying history, there would be little harm in it. But what if the school decided to put a baseball diamond on the field such that the dugout is situated along the fence by the vestigial driveways? If the history deniers are in charge of the construction, somebody might get hurt. Why? Because if they proceed as though a designer built everything we see just as it is, and they assume the vestigial driveways were designed for drainage, then there is no reason to expect that utilities might be buried on that side of the street. Should they encounter any utilities while digging, the history deniers must shrug their shoulders and say, “I guess the designer put those there for some odd reason.” On the other hand, if these vestigial driveways once belonged to houses, then we should expect to find water mains, sewage pipes, electrical conduit, and natural gas lines.

Our bodies are similarly littered with sub-optimized relics of the past. The tortuous path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve, which exits the skull and loops around the aorta before innervating the voice box, makes absolutely no sense apart from the developmental pathway we inherited from fish. The "wisdom" teeth that don't seem to fit our stubby faces are also difficult explain if anatomically modern humans appeared on earth with no evolutionary precursors. In fact, nothing about human physiology and anatomy makes much sense apart from the evolutionary history we share with the rest of God's creatures. Deniers of this apparent history are not only forced to offer convoluted explanations of these vestiges, but they unwittingly undermine the life and earth sciences by destroying one of their most important organizing principles: history.

While the obfuscation of successful scientific paradigms might be an unintended consequence of the Intelligent Design movement, notice how design still played an important role in solving our driveway mystery. In fact, we concluded that our driveway-like structures were originally designed as driveways because they were clearly not optimized for drainage. We also compared our mysterious curb with other curbs optimized for use along fields and other culverts optimized specifically for drainage. In some sense, design helped us figure out the evolutionary history of the neighborhood!

In biology, the fact that structures show evidence of design, or optimization, is no secret. You can watch any episode of Wild Kingdom and hear the narrator referring to how the cheetah is designed for speed and his teeth are optimized for tearing flesh, etc. But sadly, when employed by the Intelligent Design movement, design becomes a polemic to reject natural history rather than a tool to discover it.

Filed Under:
natural selection, history, science, philosophy, intelligent design, evolution, creationism, religion, scripture, Gordon Glover, nature, natural history

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  1. Glen Davidson - #1982

    January 8th 2010

    What’s so ridiculous about it all is that in order to force everything into their own preconceptions they have to change the overriding “intelligence behind life”  into something as lacking in foresight, reason, and purpose as evolution is.  Clearly purposeless features become fathomless mysteries which, essentially, we are not to question or understand.

    In the end it’s virtually a demand that we—or at least those who believe them—should cease to be intelligent, so that the accidents and contingencies existing in life can be intelligent instead of our own brains.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  2. John Kwok - #1985

    January 8th 2010

    @ Glen -

    Well said, which is of course what I always expect from you.

    @ Gordon -

    This is a superb, quite brilliant analogy, and am especially thrilled that you, with your background in engineering recognize the relevance of “genealogical history” - what you refer to as natural history but would be more accurately described as phylogenetic history - in discussing how well “designed” organisms have been. But, I might add, you could have mentioned too that there has been ample scientific research showing how “design” could be an emergent property from “randomness” (via computer simulations), or rather, from the perspective of phylogenetic history, Natural Selection.

  3. Gregory Arago - #1987

    January 8th 2010

    Hi Gordon,

    Regarding the post *only* up to the words “natural gas lines,” I need to ask a couple of questions before I can understand why you think this analogy is valid.

    1. Did you coin the terms ‘neighborhood evolution’ or ‘evolutionary history of the neighbourhood’ or ‘vestigal driveways’ or did you borrow them from someone else? Are you aware of anyone in the field of urban planning that speaks of neighbourhoods ‘evolving’?

    2.  You wrote, “In fact, that side of the street was once lined with houses just like the other side.”

    How did you establish this as a ‘fact’? Did you go to the city planning office or to the archives to confirm the previous existence of houses? Do you have a date of when those houses were demolished or destroyed by fire or otherwise cleared from the land? Friends who live across the street? Etc.

    3. Weren’t the original driveways (and houses they connected to the street) ‘deliberately planned’?

    Thanks, Gregory

    p.s. I would appreciate it if no one else would answer for Gordon on these questions as I am interested for the moment *only* in his answer

  4. Gordon J. Glover - #1993

    January 8th 2010

    John Kwok—I wish I did have time to explore those points you raised.  The question of “mind” as an emergent property of a complex cosmos is indeed a fascinating topic!  Also, as a practicing engineer who designs highly specialized machines, I know first-hand how the final outcome of the design process is influenced by circumstances along the way.  I am rarely “unconstrained” when designing something.

    Gregory Arago—

    1.) I’ve never heard these terms used.  I’ve worked for public works departments on old Navy Bases and these “civil” vestiges are quite common.

    2.) 2nd-hand info.  My family has lived in that city since the 1930’s.  An entire city block was apparently annexed.  Check google maps satellite view: Incarante Word Academy, Corpus Christi, TX.  You can even “drive” down Lawnview street and see both sides of the stree for yourself.

    3.) Yes, of course.  You should have read past “natural gas lines”.

    GJG

  5. Jordan - #2011

    January 8th 2010

    Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I read this as a critique of non-evolutionary creationism (specifically young-earth) and not of Intelligent Design as Glen, John, and the second-to-last paragraph indicate.

    My understanding of ID is that it definitely leaves much room for biological evolution (which of course would included vestigial features) but is more concerned with chemical evolution (abiogenesis). So while this post shows an interesting analogy for refuting arguments that deny common decent, I don’t see how it addresses ID really at all since it doesn’t deny common decent for the most part. It is my understanding at least, that ID doesn’t propose that all things show “design” but but only some.

  6. John Kwok - #2012

    January 8th 2010

    Jordan -

    Gordan’s comments apply to all of creationism, but especially to Intelligent Design, which has tried valiantly - but also deceptively IMHO - to resurrect Paley’s argument from Design. There are ID proponents who are Young Earth Creationists (DI Senior Fellow Paul Nelson) and at least one who accepts common descent (Nelson’s “colleague” Michael Behe), while a more common view is skepticism (as noted by William Dembski who claims he is neutral on the issue of “common descent”).

    If Intelligent Design did leave “much room for biological evolution”, then why the rhetorical sleight-of-hand from Meyer in his “Signature in the Cell”, in which he contends that Intelligent Design is “scientific” because one can “test” for deviations from a perfect “Design”? I hate to emphasis the obvious, but Intelligent Design is not science, period, nor does it allow for any acceptance of biological evolution as valid scientific fact.

  7. John Kwok - #2013

    January 8th 2010

    @ PS to my last comment -

    Sorry about that, Gordon. I inadvertently misspelled your name.

  8. Jordan - #2018

    January 8th 2010

    @John Kwok:

    I guess I don’t quite understand your argument. My understanding is that ID does not make the claim that vestigial features should not exist, so it seems to me that Gordon’s post doesn’t really address ID but rather a hypothesis that some people might add on to ID, namely that everything we see now is as it was originally designed. Debunking the “add-on” does nothing to ID, it would seem to me. I’m not saying that Gordon’s analogy is faulty, but it seems like it addresses something other than ID specifically.

    To use Gordon’s analogy, I would think ID would say “Hey, this track looks like it was planned. Oh, these driveways look planned too because they look just like the ones over at those houses.” but would leave “Was the track originally planned to have driveway-looking things or is that some historical artifact?” for another argument altogether. In this case, since their are ID people on both sides of the fence I don’t see how they are taking a stated position in one direction or the other.

  9. Gordon J. Glover - #2019

    January 8th 2010

    Jordan,

    I personally take no issue with the idea of desgin in nature.  What bothers me is when the design argument is used (mistakenly) as a trump card for useful scientific paradigms like common descent.  That would be analogous to arguing that since concrete can’t pour itself, these driveway-looking things must have been designed for drianage, even though they do not resemble other structures that are optimzed for drainage elsewhere.  It’s a complete red-herring argument.  The history of what we see today should stand or fall on the forensic evidence—not on our ability to understand exactly how how concrete is poured, or how “information” gets added to the genome in the case of descent with modification.

    The history of our biological evolution, as expressed by the degree of relatedness between species, is a question in and of itself.  It doesn’t depend on the various proposed mechanisms of evolutionary change.  It either happened or it did not.  How it happened is another question.  Many IDers argue that design trumps history—which it doesn’t.

  10. Mike Gene - #2021

    January 8th 2010

    Hi Gordon,

    Interesting.  What are you basically showing is that design logic leads to a conclusion of common descent.  This is therefore not an argument against design, but an argument against those who would conflate design with creationism.

  11. John Kwok - #2029

    January 8th 2010

    @ Mike -

    Or rather, to state succinctly, as Francisco J, Ayala has noted, Darwin showed that it was possible to have “Design without a Designer”. What Gordon has written here is merely a reminder that Design in biological evolution results from history, not from the action(s) of an Intellgient Designer.

  12. Glen Davidson - #2031

    January 8th 2010

    The history of our biological evolution, as expressed by the degree of relatedness between species, is a question in and of itself.  It doesn’t depend on the various proposed mechanisms of evolutionary change.

    It is not a question in and of itself, because we happen to know the mechanisms of biological reproduction.

    What you’re doing is analogous with finding manuscript families which show clear relationships to each other, and supposing that the mechanisms of change are actually in question.  Of course there are contingent questions involving known mechanisms for change during the reproduction of manuscripts, but we happen to have a good handle on the range of possibilities.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  13. Glen Davidson - #2032

    January 8th 2010

    Continuing from #2031:

    Unless, of course, you want to say that manuscripts might have been poofed into existence, or some spirit possession was responsible for a particular instance of reproduction.  But that isn’t acceptable to most people, nor is it acceptable in science for you to say that recent bacterial evolution indicates “natural evolution,” while the same class of evidence could point to supernatural production in a more distant past.  It can by no means point to that, only the bare possibility of that can be granted (since it can’t be ruled out).

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  14. Glen Davidson - #2033

    January 8th 2010

    Continuing from #2032:

    It either happened or it did not.  How it happened is another question.  Many IDers argue that design trumps history—which it doesn’t.

    Why doesn’t it “trump history” in the same manner as human designs, in which ideas and designs unrelated to what has been put into airplanes previously can “leap into existence” in the most recent airplane model and are not constrained by history and the gradual changes that is all that normal reproduction allows? 

    That’s how we know that intelligence isn’t (demonstrably) behind evolution, because evolution evidently has been constrained by history and normal genetics, rather than being constrained by intelligence and design principles.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  15. RJS - #2037

    January 8th 2010

    Jordan,

    I think you are right - this analogy is useful when considering some forms of intelligent design, but not all of the claims made by all of the people under the intelligent design umbrella. It is particularly relevant to special creation (separate creation of species) whether young earth, or old-earth progressive creation.  It is part of a critique of the efforts of those in intelligent design (not everyone) to disprove evolution as a mechanism.

    But it seems that the history we see in both the fossil record and in the genome supports the general evolutionary algorithm quite strongly - once we have cells we can get to higher life forms, and even humans reading the evidence.

  16. Mark - #2039

    January 8th 2010

    Perhaps BioLogos needs to consider a name change. I am thinking something like: Anti-ID.  Wouldn’t that be more in line with the content on this site? 

    Enough already with the anti ID articles!

    Happy days

  17. Gregory Arago - #2040

    January 8th 2010

    Hi Gordon,

    Yes, sure I read beyond the ‘natural gas lines’. But the analagoy was so badly flawed to begin with that there wasn’t much point in you doing exactly what the ID people do and thinking you could get away with it. You start with ‘human design’ and move to ‘biology,’ though they don’t always do this. (And you are neither a human-social scientist nor a biologist!)

    You wrote:  “I’ve never heard these terms used.”

    So, you make up a few terms and try to suppose they are rational and useful?! They simply don’t make sense in the way you have used them regarding ‘design,’ ‘evolution’ & history. You are speaking of driveways, which are quite obviously human-made things!

    It is foolish here to apply the term ‘history deniers’ and hint about IDists!

    You admit that as an engineer you ‘design’ things which obviously don’t ‘evolve’ into existence in the same way that ‘natural’ things do. Of course you’ve heard of Darwin’s distinction between ‘natural selection’ and ‘artificial selection.’ Have you heard of A.R. Wallace’s distinction between ‘human selection’ and ‘natural selection’?

    The driveways, the fence and the track were all ‘designed’. That is, none of them ‘evolved.’

  18. Gregory Arago - #2043

    January 8th 2010

    “For the history denier, there must be a valid reason to build driveways that terminate in grass under fences.” - GJG

    This first use of ‘history denier’ is really quite ridiculious. Does Gordon actually think anyone ‘planned’ that the houses would be torn down and the driveways would end up under fences? No, of course not. Yet he still must face the planning, agency, decision-making and teleo-logic that went into building the houses and driveways.

    In biology a different grammar is used. But this does nothing to support GJG’s absurd usage of ‘neighborhood evolution.’ Why would he suggest such a thing unless he gives ‘evolution’ a monopoly over ‘change’?

    Some things change without ‘evolving’. Gordon offers such an example, yet his choice of grammar suggests that he supports ‘universal evolutionism’ when the mission of BioLogos does not. Perhaps he should get with the ‘outside of evolution’ program.

    I agree with Mark that there seems to be a *lot* of anit-ID sentiment here, but unlike John Kwok, that Biologos doesn’t need to be obsessed with it because they are seeking an alternative way.

    What *is* this way if evolution is still universalized by people like Gordon?

  19. RJS - #2045

    January 8th 2010

    Gregory,

    Aren’t there really two kinds of ID? Perhaps best classified like this:

    - The evolution deniers

    and

    - The evolution supplementers (evolution is true, but not enough).

    If we could separate the two we’d have a better conversation. Gordon’s argument really tackles the first - and tries to illustrate the problems encountered by some of the arguments put forth by those who deny evolution.  This post has nothing to say about the second form of ID, or about any alternative way.

  20. Gordon J. Glover - #2048

    January 8th 2010

    Gregory, I think you are over reacting here.  Obviously, no anlogy is perfect, but the point here is really very simple.  Let me try again…

    1.)  When it comes this particular neighborhood, things that might otherwise seem peculiar make perfect sense once we understand its formational history.

    2.)  Once we’ve got the historical narrative down, we can use it to make predictions about facts that we might not have access to apart from the narrative—like the presence of utilities.

    3.)  All of the objects in our scenario were designed (or optimized) for a particular purpose by engineers, but not everything was designed or optimized in its PRERSENT configuration—ie: the vestigial driveways.

    (cont…)

  21. Gordon J. Glover - #2049

    January 8th 2010

    (...cont)

    Since civil-construction practices are no secret, there is no mystery as to how the structures in my example got there.  In biology, however, there is still some mystery as to how structures are optimzed by their environment.  So we can, and should, have friendly debates about the roles that necessity, contingency, and mind play in design—but that doesn’t change the historical narrative.  In fact, the sub-optimization we see today is better explained by history (ie: design evolution) than it would be assuming that it was designed as it currently is.  And if we reject the narrative, we also reject any insight that might be gained by applying this narrative to the study of nature.

    Now making the imperfect leap to biology: all creatures are stricken with similarly sub-optimized features, which all make perfect sense in terms of evolutionary history.  However, some in the ID camp use the notion of “design” to argue against common descent and promote special creation of all things in their current form—and no matter how you slice it, rejecting evolutionary history does indeed makes one a history-denier. 

    (cont…)

  22. Gordon J. Glover - #2050

    January 8th 2010

    (...cont)

    I believe that this is done, not to better explain the evidence, but to avoid the theological challenges of common ancestry. 

    //end

  23. Gordon J. Glover - #2051

    January 8th 2010

    RJS,  you get what I’m saying.  Thanks.

    However, I personally would not use the term “evolution supplimenters” or “evolution is not enough”.  From what I can see, evolution (or common ancestry) is more about the narrative of species changing over time.  Or as Darwin said, “descent with modification”. 

    On the question of whether mutation + natural selection is sufficent in and of itself (along with the other proposed mechanisms of evolutionary change), I’ll leave that to the experts in the lab.  But I don’t see how the answer to that question changes the narrative of evolution.  I think you can be skeptical about the ability of the proposed mechanisms (as we currently understand them) without being a history-denier.

  24. John Kwok - #2052

    January 8th 2010

    @ Mark -

    Since its inception, BioLogos has recognized that biological evolution is a well established scientific fact (If you doubt this, you should read Francis Collins’s commentary, both in print and available online (e. g. American Museum of Natural History Darwin Exhibition and Hall of Human Origins links). It is “anti-ID” in the sense that it recognizes that ID is not valid science (though it seems far more willing to build bridges with the ID advocate community, including the Discovery Institute, which in the case of the Discovery Institute may be misguided and fraught with ample peril.).

  25. RJS - #2063

    January 8th 2010

    Gordon,

    You are right on all counts there - and I would change the term a bit. A better way to put it might be “natural mechanisms are not enough.”

    Although this natural mechanism is often equated with mutation + natural selection, it is not exactly the same thing, as you acknowledge.  I also think you can be skeptical about the ability of the proposed mechanisms (as we currently understand them) without denying evolution - or as you put it denying history.

    An intelligent design hypothesis must not only demonstrate that natural selection and mutation alone are not enough - but also that there are no other natural processes or influence that combines with natural selection and mutation to achieve the result we see. This is where I think ID falls down - or at least opens itself to the possibility of being an argument from ignorance.

  26. Mere_Christian - #2084

    January 9th 2010

    @John Kwok - #2029

    Or rather, to state succinctly, as Francisco J, Ayala has noted, Darwin showed that it was possible to have “Design without a Designer”.

    Not in the known universe John. 0 x 0 = nothing. Literally, factually scientifically.

    Design without a designer is disproven by the creation itself. It’s not possible to have function from chaos. Even in a lab. You may be able to throw scrabble pieces on the floor and get a few words spelled out, but that too had a cause to the effect. But ALL of life is a bit more complicated than a lucky throw of already structured things.

    Darwin has only shown us how finches need bigger beaks to crack tougher nuts on the other side of the Island. Still finches though. Not a one has become a python. Or a person.

  27. pds - #2085

    January 9th 2010

    Gordon,

    As others have noted, this post is a defense of genuine intelligent design, and an attack on “straw man intelligent design,” which you seem to refer to as the “intelligent design movement.”  Who are the leading proponents who espouse the “history denial” that you are attacking?

    RJS (#2045)

    I think the distinction is helpful.  But who are the leading proponents of “ID evolution deniers”?  Do they exist?  Can you name names?

  28. Girdon J. Glover - #2086

    January 9th 2010

    RJS,

    Regarding your statement “natural mechanisms are not enough” - I would nuance that with the qualifier “as we currently understand them”.  Call me an optimist, but I believe that the cosmos was gifted with the ability to self organize in ways that are beyond our everday experience.

  29. Girdon J. Glover - #2088

    January 9th 2010

    pds, good question.  My point here is not to defend intelligent design.  Those familiar with my youtube channel know that I’m am a harsh critic of the DI.  But I am defending the comaptibility of design (intelligent or not) and evolution.

    However, most public proponents of ID use design to argue against common ancestry.  The see design, infer that it was directed based on their common experience with complexity, and then conclude that evolution must be wrong because it presupposes no intelligent designer.

  30. RJS - #2091

    January 9th 2010

    Gordon,

    I think the “as we currently understand them” is the important point.

    There is an effort in the ID movement to prove that natural mechanisms are not enough - these are quite sophisticated arguments. But I don’t think even these will stand the test of time ... they are still arguments from ignorance.

    pds,

    I have no intention of naming names - because that usually just causes conversation to degenerate. I would rather talk about ideas.

    I find the history denier, evolution denier type arguments to be rather easily refuted - and I know of no one with scientific training who holds these views for scientific reasons. They are held for some other reason ... among Christians it is usually inerrancy or theology.

    On the other hand, I do know of a number of people who have solid scientific training who will argue that natural mechanism is not enough. I don’t think they are right, but this is an important conversation worth having.  It is certainly true that many questions - especially of the topic of origin of life - are not answered, or even approaching answers as of yet.

  31. Gregory Arago - #2093

    January 9th 2010

    Yes, that’s a fair distinction/classification (2045). I agree we’d have a better conversation if Gordon would say precisely who or what he is arguing with (e.g. some Idists, but not all of them). I find his writing confusing since from my experience there are very few ‘history deniers’ or ‘evolution deniers’ among the leaders of the IDM. He needs to give names or admit he is taunting shadows.

    Does GJG agree that “evolution is true, but not enough”? And also, ‘enough’ for what? For everything including human-made things?

    To say that a ‘neighborhood evolves’ is absurd because we can (grey) trace the ‘plans, goals, decisions and/or designs’ of every moment in human-social action. Gordon’s notion of ‘evolution’ is thus ‘dehumanized.’ Yet maybe it was an innocent analogy!? Dehumanization is not child’s play!

    GJG later speaks of ‘formational history.’ Again, what is this but loose language, w/out referential precedent and thus *bad* for communication? Who did he seek authority and wisdom from about it?

    I find Gordon too interested to attack ‘intelligent design’ and not to enlighten about what ‘Biologos’ is and isn’t. Is this intentional or is it essential to establish space for Biologos to develop?

  32. Gregory Arago - #2095

    January 9th 2010

    Gordon: ‘history’ = ‘design evolution.’ Is this another imaginative speculation?

    I understand Gordon’s ‘designed in the present’ argument, but he fundamentally misunderstands the field of historical studies (as many engineers do!). S. Meyer actually holds a degree from Cambridge University in a historical field!

    Gordon, imho, you seriously need to re-think what you are saying about history as a non-historian.

    My suggestion: stop attacking ‘the ID camp’ and come up with something original of your own that involves the ‘designs,’ ‘plans,’ and ‘teleologic,’ which are part of your actual knowledge practice. Continuing to speak of ‘neighborhoods evolving’ and ‘vestigal driveways’ will just bring discredit to your position. Driveways simply do not ‘evolve’ into existence by human choice and fundamentally cannot do so! You would only embrace dispirited human-social thinkers to say that they do.

    As it is, you appear to be duplicating (or mirroring) the ‘design’ argument of IDists rather than pointing out any ‘more than natural’ mechanisms. I didn’t realize that engineers felt themselves compelled to be ‘naturalists’! There would be little of morals or ethics in that.

  33. Gregory Arago - #2096

    January 9th 2010

    Let me say it in the clearest terms possible: there is *no* biological theory that can explain how ‘driveways’ originate or ‘change over time’ as a result of human choices.

    Will Gordon Glover re-consider *not* using the term ‘evolution’ wrt ‘driveways and other human-made things?

    It is Gordon who is denying history if he thinks that ‘driveways’ can originate without human choices.

  34. pds - #2097

    January 9th 2010

    RJS,

    Accurately naming names and accurately describing their positions does not hurt debate at all.  It ensures that we are not discussing straw men.  Rather, you and Gordon seem to be talking about YEC people, but you are promoting guilt by association by referring to ID and the ID “movement.”  That does hurt the debate.

    Meyer and Behe are not “evolution deniers,” and they are the current leading voices in ID.

  35. RJS - #2098

    January 9th 2010

    pds,

    Behe is not, I haven’t quite figured Meyer out, but I don’t think that he is.

    But the “deniers” are not just YEC people - most progressive creationism positions also deny the history of common descent.

    Part of the problem, I think, with the image and output of the DI is that these two aspects are mixed to fight what is perceived as a common enemy. The way that the DI wrote about Tiktaalik roseae is a good case in point - as I understand it (and someone can correct me if I’m wrong) Meyer is head of the part of DI responsible for publishing the newsletter where this was discussed. If this is the case it is part of the reason why I am not actually sure what Meyer thinks. On one level he seems among those who are not denying evolution, but arguing that natural mechanisms are not enough, but on another level allows that kind of rhetoric denial argument.

  36. Gregory Arago - #2101

    January 9th 2010

    Then don’t call such people ‘history deniers,’ RJS. Why not instead call them ‘common descent deniers’? This would be more accurate.

    As it is, Gordon quite obviously confuses ‘evolution’ with ‘history.’ Just make a linguistic analysis of his Essay. What is the difference when he writes ‘evolutionary history’ from when he writes ‘natural history’?

    This confusion is not, however, uncommon. There are people who mean the exact same thing when they say either that ‘nature changes’ or that ‘nature evolves’ and when they say ‘evolution’ or ‘natural history.’ Gordon Glover seems to fit perfectly into this category of misunderstanders and is due for an update on his ‘philosophy of history.’ The problem is he probably won’t accept the update!

    Otherwise, he will remain retrograde and ‘stuck’ on insulting ‘intelligent design’ and the ‘Discovery Institute’ instead of in any way contributing to something positive for BioLogos. I would hope he would have a change (not evolution) of heart and promote BioLogos.

  37. Gregory Arago - #2104

    January 9th 2010

    Just for the record, I don’t think either Behe or Meyer *deny* ‘common descent.’

    What I meant was to ask you, RJS and Gordon to clarify your opponents.

    Right now both of you appear to be speaking to shadows instead of about reality. Gordon’s self-professed “imperfect leap to biology” shows he is no more than an anti-ID partisan who offers no legitimate authority on which to trust.

    When will there be a pro-BioLogos display?

  38. Gordon J. Glover - #2105

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory—still over-reacting I see…

    “Driveways simply do not ‘evolve’ into existence by human choice and fundamentally cannot do so!”—I agree, and I never said or implied that they did.

    I’m starting to think you are intentionally missing the point just to maintain your combative stance.  Obviously, the “vestigial” driveways in my example were originally designed and built as driveways by human engineers.  They became “vestigial” only after the houses were torn down and the fence was erected over them (in the early 90’s according to my cousins who attended the shool).  And they may even possibly serve a new function today, such as drainage. 

    There are obvious similarities between this and our own anatomy when it comes to historical science.  In both cases, if we ignore the history (ie: how the structures in question have evolved over time), then we must assume that what we observe today is the product of deliberate planning, rather than a step-by-step sequence of modifications acting on a existing structures.

  39. Gordon J. Glover - #2108

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    “I didn’t realize that engineers felt themselves compelled to be ‘naturalists’!”—please explain yourself. 

    “Let me say it in the clearest terms possible: there is *no* biological theory that can explain how ‘driveways’ originate or ‘change over time’ as a result of human choices.”—did somebody claim that there was?

    “Will Gordon Glover re-consider *not* using the term ‘evolution’ wrt ‘driveways and other human-made things?”—Absolutely not.  There are several systems I work on where the current configuration is quite different from the original.  Features are added, others are put into disuse.  Every time there is a design revision, the engineers are forced to work with what is existing, rather than from a blank sheet.  This is done to conserve resources, and usually leads to vestiges and sub-optimization. 

    Evolution (re: change over time) is a perfectly fitting term to describe these systems—and using the term does not imply that the change is necessarily random or undirected.

  40. Gordon J. Glover - #2109

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    “Just for the record, I don’t think either Behe or Meyer *deny* ‘common descent.’”

    I’ve read everything Behe ever wrote and have not found anything to the contrary.  I’m almost finished with Meyer’s latest and can’t really tell where he stands.  His explanation of “junk-DNA” and pseudogenes leads me to believe that he rejects common ancestry.  I’ve read elsewhere that he takes a “special creation” view of the Cambrian “explosion” in the book’s Appendix, but haven’t gotten there yet.

    “What I meant was to ask you, RJS and Gordon to clarify your opponents.”—Opponents = those who would use the design argument to reject common ancestry simply for theological purposes.  I agree with RJS that it does no good to name names.

    “Gordon’s self-professed “imperfect leap to biology” shows he is no more than an anti-ID partisan…”—yet the point of the post was to argue that design is compatible with common descent.  Perhaps you are no more than an anti-BioLogos partisan?

  41. Gordon J. Glover - #2110

    January 9th 2010

    I should clarify that when I said I’ve read everything from Behe, I was referring only to his books published for popular consumption, not to any of his technical papers.

  42. Gregory Arago - #2111

    January 9th 2010

    Still no pro-Biologos display, Gordon?

    You are quite plainly in self-contradiction.

    I wrote: “Driveways simply do not ‘evolve’ into existence by human choice and fundamentally cannot do so!”

    You replied: “I agree, and I never said or implied that they did.”

    Later I wrote: “Will Gordon Glover re-consider *not* using the term ‘evolution’ wrt ‘driveways and other human-made things?”

    You replied: “Absolutely not.”

    So, which is it?

    I hope you see, Gordon, that my ‘purpose’ in asking this is as much a challenge to ‘intelligent design’ as it is to you. I have seen nothing positive as to what ‘Biologos’ means to you that distinguishes it from ‘universal evolutionism.’

    Yet both Karl Giberson and Darrel Falk have said that ‘evolution is limited.’

    You, however, seem to say that ‘human-made things’ can be said to ‘evolve’ *simply* because they ‘change-over-time.’

    Your analogy is flawed. Will you not admit it?

  43. Gregory Arago - #2112

    January 9th 2010

    I am reacting quite appropriately to your failure to understand the flawed analogy between biological evolution and ‘human-social evolution,’ in the case of ‘neighborhoods’.

    Since you are attacking ‘intelligent design’ for its flawed analogies, it is only fair to expose yours.

    As an engineer you ‘design’ things ‘in history,’ i.e. they take place ‘over time.’ They also take place in space (which evolutionary theory fundamentally underestimates, but that’s for another thread). The ‘social changes’ are neither random nor undirected.

    You wrote: “if we ignore the history (ie: how the structures in question have evolved over time), then we must assume that what we observe today is the product of deliberate planning…”

    Who is the ‘we’ you are referring to? Is it just a charicature of the IDM? It seems so.

    I wrote: “I didn’t realize that engineers felt themselves compelled to be ‘naturalists’!”

    You replied: “please explain yourself.”

    You are obviously depending your worldview heavily on a naturalistic theory of change (over time).

    Yes, you did say that ‘neighborhoods evolve.’ This will not be forgotten. It is wrongheaded.

  44. Gregory Arago - #2115

    January 9th 2010

    To clarify:

    Which is it: use the term ‘evolution’ wrt driveways and other human-made things or don’t use it?

    Do you ever say that you ‘evolved’ something that you engineered, Gordon?

    Can you give examples of ‘things that don’t evolve’?

    I didn’t suggest that ‘vestigal biological structures’ were ‘intelligently designed.’

    But there would be little left to conclude other than that you hold to a ‘naturalistic universalism’ in the form of ‘evolutionism’ if you cannot come up with any answers about what doesn’t evolve.

    Biologos offers an alternative to the term ‘evolution’ which carries too much ideological baggage. Why not dump some of yours Gordon by discarding the term ‘evolution’ wrt human-made things? You would discover that this is neither a pro-ID nor a pro-TE/CE position, which would allow you to move forward with your BioLogos ideas. Or you could just react negatively…

  45. Darrel Falk - #2117

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    I’d like to jump in here.  The God of the Bible is a God who supersedes natural laws.  I also believe in, and personally experience, a God whose presence extends beyond natural laws.  Because of that, I think it is likely that God has done more in creation than to simply front load the system and maintain the natural laws.  However I have many colleagues, who hold a position similar to the way I sense Gordon leaning.  They believe that God has endowed creation with the capacity to self-organize.

    What we share—and the reason why I believe we are all under one BioLogos’ umbrella—is a commitment to the notion that science, in essence, has it right.  Those who think like me, do so for theological and philosophical reasons.  Those who hold a position of “God-endowed emergence through natural laws” likely do so for theological and philosophical reasons as well.  I doubt there is any way to sort out who is right, but I don’t think it really matters.  If God created through self-emergence, so be it.  To me, that does not preclude miracles and answered prayers in biblical times, nor does it do so in our lives today.

  46. Gregory Arago - #2118

    January 9th 2010

    Mobile homes to morals, Gordon. It’s a simple as that.

    You say homes (along with their driveways) ‘evolve.’ Do you also say ‘morals’ evolve? I highly doubt that you support evolutionary psychology. Yet you seem to with your slippery position wrt human-made things.

    Better to drop the heavy ideological baggage and quite the flimsy evolutionary analogy.

    You can almost certainly find more friends in the IDM (which is *not* just young earthers) than you can among atheistic evolutionary biologists! This will take place in history, over time.

    Logos - word, order, reason, understanding. Why deny that *all* of these things are the result of mind?!

  47. Gregory Arago - #2119

    January 9th 2010

    Yes, Darrel, we’re on a similar page. God is superseding and extending beyond natural laws indeed!

    To say, as you do, that “God has endowed creation with the capacity to self-organize.”

    O.k. fine.

    Then whose theory of self-organization are you suggesting? I need names and not just rhetoric because ‘systems’ theory is a GIGANTIC contemporary landscape. Prigorine and Stengers, Margulis, Ashby, Kaufman, Luhmann, Weiner, Prokopenko…who are you advocating? And who is the ‘evangelical Christian’ name that you will offer?

    Just on wikipedia there are 8 examples of self-organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization)

    Let me add that Americans are, from my experience, under-developed in the theory of cybernetics compared to other parts of the world. For better or worse.

    With all due respect, Dr. Falk, it is impossible that, as you say “science has it right.” This is because there are ‘sciences,’ and not ‘one science.’ Hear!

    This is an elementary discovery of philosophy of science and cannot be dismissed without being anti-philosophical, i.e. being against wisdom.

  48. Gregory Arago - #2120

    January 9th 2010

    Typos:

    “quit the flimsy evolutionary analogy”

    and

    Iliya Prigogine (not Prigorine)

    /

    I would add to this by asking Dr. Falk who coined the term ‘self-emergence’ and who he would cite as a theoretician. Is he suggesting a non-existent discourse or just presuming a term that is not commonly used? If it is commonly used, then by whom and in which field(s)?

    Speculation by loose grammar such as Gordon Glover’s is no constructive to common understanding.

  49. Gordon J. Glover - #2121

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    You wrote: “Driveways simply do not ‘evolve’ into existence by human choice and fundamentally cannot do so!”

    Driveways are designed and constructed by human engineers.  If the neighborhood they belong to changes through time, and I say that this city block has “evolved” from residences to running track, this is not the same as saying that the driveways “evolved into existence”.  To me, the distinction is evident, and my of the word “evolve” to mean change over time is fine.

    “Yet both Karl Giberson and Darrel Falk have said that ‘evolution is limited.’”—I would also agree that the mechanisms that drive evolution—as we currently understand them—are limited.  But the historical narrative of evolution (that ties the otherwise disparate facts together) stands apart from the current challenges.

    “You, however, seem to say that ‘human-made things’ can be said to ‘evolve’ *simply* because they ‘change-over-time.’ Your analogy is flawed. Will you not admit it?”—I have already admitted that the analogy is limited, as I just did again above.

  50. Darrel Falk - #2122

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    I’m not sure you understood my position since you went on to ask me to name advocates for a position that I personally don’t hold. 

    However, I’m wondering if you have read John Polkinghorne, Simon Conway Morris,  and Howard van Till. 

    Blessings,
    Darrel

  51. Gregory Arago - #2124

    January 9th 2010

    “Driveways are designed and constructed by human engineers.  If the neighborhood they belong to changes through time, and I say that this city block has “evolved” from residences to running track, this is not the same as saying that the driveways “evolved into existence”.  To me, the distinction is evident, and my of the word “evolve” to mean change over time is fine.” - Gordon Glover

    The preferred English term is ‘developed.’ And no, city blocks don’t ‘evolve’ either. Again, I say this because I am much more of an expert on ‘social evolution’ than Gordon is, that ‘evolution’ in human-social thought *does not* equate with ‘change-over-time.’ He gives ‘evolution’ a monopoly over change and I, along with the most prolific sociologist of our time, the Brit A. Giddens, and others refuse this.

    ‘The mechanisms of evolution are limited.’ - Gordon

    That’s a start that I’ll accept.

  52. Gordon J. Glover - #2125

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    “Do you ever say that you ‘evolved’ something that you engineered, Gordon?”—of course not.  The biological connotations of the word might be confusing if I used it like that at the office.  But when I’m pointing out similarities between a species changing over time and a city block changing over time—with respect to vestigial structures and sub-optimization—then I would (and did) use the word “evolve”.  It’s simply a play on words.  I still don’t see why you are so worked up about this.  Also notice how you are the only one reacting this way to my little “parable”.  What does that tell you?

    “Do you also say ‘morals’ evolve?”—God’s standards of righteousness, insofar as they are based on his own character, do not change—just as God Himself does not change.  But certainly the application of those principles in human soceity changes (eg: Jesus vs. Moses on divorce, etc..).

  53. Gregory Arago - #2126

    January 9th 2010

    Darrel,

    You wrote: “I have many colleagues, who hold a position similar to the way I sense Gordon leaning. They believe that God has endowed creation with the capacity to self-organize.”

    And later: “I’m not sure you understood my position since you went on to ask me to name advocates for a position that I personally don’t hold.”

    I suppose it was not clear if you also held this ‘self-organization’ position or not.

    Continuing: “However, I’m wondering if you have read John Polkinghorne, Simon Conway Morris,  and Howard van Till.”

    Yes, I have read and/or listened to them all, in the order that you list them.

    Gregory

  54. Gordon J. Glover - #2128

    January 9th 2010

    Gregory,

    “The preferred English term is ‘developed.’ And no, city blocks don’t ‘evolve’ either.”—Sure, in everyday discourse nobody would say a city block evolved from residences to a running track.  Granted—we would all use the term ‘developed’.  But if I’m drawing on the similarities between species change and neighborhood change—specifically with respect to vestigial structures—then I will use the word ‘evolve’ to drive home the point.  Good grief!

    “He (Gordon)  gives ‘evolution’ a monopoly over change and I, along with the most prolific sociologist of our time, the Brit A. Giddens, and others refuse this.”—what in the world are you talking about here?  How is that you have made the leap from this very modest analogy to social evolution?

  55. John Kwok - #2130

    January 9th 2010

    To all -

    RJS (# 2063) is correct when he observes this tough hurdle which Intelligent Design must pass if it were to be viewed as a credible - and better - alternative to the Modern Synthesis Theory of biological evolution (Please note that I am not defending this theory, but do regard it as the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory on the fact of biological evolution that we have now.):

    “An intelligent design hypothesis must not only demonstrate that natural selection and mutation alone are not enough - but also that there are no other natural processes or influence that combines with natural selection and mutation to achieve the result we see. This is where I think ID falls down - or at least opens itself to the possibility of being an argument from ignorance.”

    No one from the Discovery Institute has demonstrated RJS’s proposition. Nor will they ever do so since they’re not interested in doing science, but rather instead, promoting their mendacious intellectual pornography.

  56. Glen Davidson - #2135

    January 9th 2010

    And no, city blocks don’t ‘evolve’ either.

    Of course they do:

    In the early 70’s, the block was New York’s answer to London’s Carnaby Street, drawing celebrities like John Lennon and Andy Warhol to its boutiques. Herb Schindermann, who opened Ann-Morris Antiques with his father in 1970, has witnessed the block’s evolution.

    [Bolding added]

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/20/garden/antiques-row-thrives-anew-on-east-60th.html?pagewanted=all

    As for earlier claims that cities don’t evolve, Google it.  There are many entries referring to city evolution, often of specific cities.

    I’m not saying that the analogy or words used by Gordon would have been inappropriate even were this not so, for they would not be wrong.  But it’s really been about enough complaining about it, and the complaints are so inadequate from every angle.

    One may easily equivocate with the word “evolution,” of course, and treating biological and block evolution as if they are the same things would be equivocation.  As an analogy, however, it isn’t even close to equivocation.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  57. Gordon J. Glover - #2142

    January 9th 2010

    John Kwok just reminded me of something that I wanted to say earlier:

    RJS made an excellent point, “An intelligent design hypothesis must not only demonstrate that…there are no other natural processes or influence that combines with natural selection and mutation to achieve the result we see.”

    To counter the charge that ID is simply an argument from ignorance (God of the gaps), Meyer contends that ID is actually a positive argument because in our everyday experience, information and irreducibly complex structures don’t emerge spontaneously.  Since these things always require the influence of ‘mind’ in our everyday experience, we should conclude that intelligent design is a more rational explanation of biological information / complexity than are unguided physical processes.

    The problem, however, is that Meyer’s argument only really demonstrates that if evolution is driven purely by physical processes, then our “everyday experience” is a lousy guide as to how these processes might work.  Obviously, we have to fully wrap our minds around what drives evolution (assuming that is is purely material).  But whatever it is, it probably does NOT resemble anything we see in our “everyday experience”.

    (cont…)

  58. Gordon J. Glover - #2143

    January 9th 2010

    (...cont)

    For instance, just imagine trying to explain quantum phenomena in terms of our everyday experience.  There is no analogue that even comes close.  I can’t move from point A to point B without crossing the space between.  That is nonsensical.  And I can’t appear on the other side of a brick wall for obvious reasons.  And I can’t travel from point A to point B along two separate paths simoultaneously.  And if somebody placed an obstacle in one of these two paths, I would have no way of knowing about it until I interacted with it.  However, a photon can “see” into the future and “choose” the path that avoids the obstacle prior to being fired!  But we would never grant ordinary objects the ability to “see” or “choose” based solely on our everyday experience. 

    Given how little we know about the physical cosmos, and given how strange the physical cosmos can be when are fortunate enough to get a glimpse of it, I see little reason to declare the science of abiogenesis “dead” and invoke the special creation trump card as Meyer suggests.  Perhaps God did create life this way, but the only way to know is to keep searching for an answer.

  59. Gordon J. Glover - #2144

    January 9th 2010

    Typo—#2142 should read, “Obviously, we have *yet* to fully wrap our minds around what drives evolution…”

  60. Glen Davidson - #2146

    January 9th 2010

    Design, or directed evolution, over billions of years also is not part of our everyday experience.  Which is only one reason why Meyer’s is such a lousy argument.

    But Meyer was writing apologetics, not science.  Lyell went for strict uniformitarianism because he didn’t know much about geologic causation.  And, unsurprisingly, we’ve done better considering individual causes as these became much better known, for many processes affected geology which do not occur today.

    For Meyer’s apologetics this works, though, because Lyell and, to a lesser extent, Darwin used a sort of science limited by a lack of knowledge.  As apologetics, it’s a kind of “turn the tables” and present evolutionary science as if it isn’t much better understood causally than in Darwin’s day.  That plays to all kinds of prejudices, and conveniently gives Meyer an excuse not to match up cause to effect, as basically all science does today.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  61. Glen Davidson - #2147

    January 9th 2010

    Continuing from #2146:

    Darwin didn’t even know about genetics.  Of course his science was imprecise and imperfect, although it worked tolerably well (but if it were all that we had today, it would indeed look questionable—its productivity is part of its practical success as a science).  Genetics provides the evolutionary constraints and predictions that are fulfilled by the evidence, and which Meyer has to bypass in order to give the impression that ID answers anything at all.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  62. John Kwok - #2159

    January 9th 2010

    Glen -

    As eminent evolutionary biologist Neil Shubin noted in the PBS NOVA documentary “Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial”, it is still remarkable how much Darwin had gotten right, and who knows, had he read the paper Gregor Mendel sent him, he might have grasped what he was really trying to say with respect to “blending inheritance”. It is this success of Darwin’s substantial work which I think unnerves creationists who contend that we regard Darwin’s works as though they were some kind of “Holy Writ”, and though they must realize that their absurd allegation is either a lie or an argument based on ignorance, still they persist in making such accusations (which, for example, Gregory Arago has done here at this blog in recent days).

    Appreciatively yours,

    John

  63. beaglelady - #2162

    January 10th 2010

    It’s simply a play on words.  I still don’t see why you are so worked up about this.

    Gordon,

    I share your bewilderment as to why anyone would go ballistic over the use of the e-word.

    The same thing happened on the Emerging Voices post, posted on Jan 4.

  64. Gregory Arago - #2175

    January 10th 2010

    Gordon, I’m surprised you don’t hear what I’m saying.

    “if I’m drawing on the similarities between species change and neighborhood change—specifically with respect to vestigial structures—then I will use the word ‘evolve’ to drive home the point.  Good grief!”

    Yes, I think it’s good grief for you! : ) You’re doing *exactly* what ID people do, appealing human-made things to biological things. Easter Island, mousetraps, Mt. Rushmore, etc. It’s the exact same argument. You’re saying “neighborhoods evolve” & just so do species.

    Have you ever thought that your analogy is *not* ‘modest’ in the slightest? It is a gigantic analogy to one who is tuned into the significance of the problem.

    The problem I am highlighting is ‘evolutionary universalism.’ You are surely against this too, Gordon. But when I show how you contribute to this with your ‘language,’ you balk at changing it. I am simply exposing your over-use, which you admitted.

    I asked: “Do you ever say that you ‘evolved’ something that you engineered, Gordon?”

    You answered: “of course not.”

    So why call something that someone else ‘engineered’ an example of ‘evolution’?

    This is a simple misnomer & you’ve accepted ‘development.’

  65. Gregory Arago - #2176

    January 10th 2010

    I think you folks should hear my position before you dismiss it.

    Glen is not an expert in human-social change, is he? So, why does he write ‘of course’ wrt to development of neighborhoods. I don’t tread on ground in his field. What gives him rights to tread on ground in mine?

    ‘Evolution’ is one of the most interdisciplinary ‘concepts’ in the Academy today. We witness here acceptance of ‘design’ in one field & rejection of ‘design’ in another. Gordon says engineers ‘design’. In doing so, he has lost part of the argument about whether or not his analogy is sufficient; it is not.

    ‘Evolution’ has been elevated it into an important part of some people’s worldviews. Let it go in some aspects and their worldviews will do fine without it!

    You folks may like the analogy because it gives ample ammunition to fire at ‘intelligent design.’ But it gives neither GJG nor any of you more insight into how BioLogos can move forward on its own without crutching on anti-ID sentiments. Your communicative over-uses of evolution are begging for adjustment!

    Advice: Keep ‘evolution’ away from anything to do with intentional, agent-based, planned, directed social action; this offers proper communication.

  66. Gregory Arago - #2177

    January 10th 2010

    From the Emerging Voices thread that John Kwok highlights:

    “We are actually using the term “BioLogos” so we can avoid constantly having to refer to “evolution,” which has become such a loaded term.  The narrow scientific meaning of evolution has been lost as the word has come to include a fully materialistic worldview for many.  If Darwin were alive today, I think he would be horrified to see what sorts of meanings have been attached to evolution.” - Karl Giberson

  67. John Kwok - #2180

    January 10th 2010

    @ Gregory Arago -

    Glen Davidson has been among our most important online voices in defense of evolution, in the sense that he recognizes the fact of biological evolution and that there is now one comprehensive, unifying theory - the Modern Synthesis Theory (there may be a replacement by credible scientists in the near future, but it will be in the sense that Einstein and Planck’s work supplanted and built on - while still retaining - Newtown’s fundamental work in Classical Mechanics) - a fact which both Karl Giberson and Darrel Falk have alluded to - if not expressed explicitly - more than once here at BioLogos. When beaglelady and yours truly have written about evolution, we have emphasized that we, too, are referring only to biological evolution.

  68. John Kwok - #2181

    January 10th 2010

    Gregory Arago (continued) -

    Let’s not mince words shall we? Unlike Glen, beaglelady, Gordon Glover and myself, it is you who have accused others of using evolution in terms that you claim are inappropriately. It is you who have accused us of regarding Darwin’s published work as though it was some kind of “Holy Writ” that we held in as much sacred esteem as Christians hold the Old and New Testaments or Muslims, the Qur’an (An accusation which I have rejected more than once here.).

    Since you find the word “evolution” so objectionable, I join with beaglelady in asking which other words should be “banned” here too?

    Respectfully yours,

    John Kwok

    P. S. We have heard your position more than once. When will you hear ours?

  69. John Kwok - #2182

    January 10th 2010

    @ Gregory Arago -

    If I may, it is both hypocritcal and deceitful of you to hide behind Karl Giberson’s quote over at the “Emerging Voices” blog entry, and not admit that you object to both the fact of biological evolution and almost universal recognition within the mainstream scientific community that that fact is well explained by contemporary evolutionary theory (Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution which includes as its fundamental core, the Darwin - Wallace Theory of Evolution via Natural Selection.).

  70. Gregory Arago - #2191

    January 10th 2010

    You didn’t read properly, John, if you think I object to ‘facts’ of biological evolution. You are likewise not listening well if you hear anything other than my rejection of ‘evolutionism’ as a universal ideology. Where do you see me challenging biological evolutionary theories? Please quote the place and sentence I did this, otherwise I won’t honour your words. They are empty and untrue on this issue and I have never asked BioLogos to ‘ban’ a word (though ‘intellectual pornography’ is rather crude).

    There is no hypocrisy or deceit in my using Giberson’s quotation. I support BioLogos’ position on seeking an alternative to ‘evolution’ in some cases due to its ideological (loaded) baggage.

    So, am I left to check how you ‘limit evolution’ also? What are examples of ‘things that don’t evolve,’ John Kwok? For worldview purposes, I highly doubt you will give an example.

    This thread demonstrates Gordon’s misuse of the term ‘evolution’ outside of biology.

  71. VMartin - #2192

    January 10th 2010

    I would recommend another picture - a building site. All water mains, sewage pipes, electrical conduit, and natural gas lines around but buildings still missing or under construction.

    Then an ID blogger writes an article that houses will follow - and quite right. Then driveways without houses are something like emergent pre-designed organs. ID is proved beyond any doubts.

    After Ayalas’s refutation of ID here Gordon Glover delivered another “persuasive” metaphor on Biologos venue.  Looking for continuation.

  72. John Kwok - #2193

    January 10th 2010

    @ Gregory -

    Again, you are ignoring what has been said by Gordon, beaglelady, Glen and myself, among others. When we refer to evolution, we are speaking ONLY of biological evolution (though it is possible to speak of cosmological evolution too, among other possibilities). I AM NOT REFERRING TO NOR DO I ENDORSE any philosophical or sociological movements which have used evolution - that is the facts of biological evolution - wrongly for their own parochial purposes (of which the classic example is Herbert Spencer’s concept of “Social Darwinism”.).

    Just to set the record straight and I have yet to read it, so answer these questions please. Do you accept the fact of biological evolution? Do you recognize that the Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution is scientifically now the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory which accounts for the facts of biological explanation, elegantly explaining relevant data from virtually all of biology?

  73. Gregory Arago - #2194

    January 10th 2010

    They why did Gordon write about ‘neighborhood evolution’ and “I say that this city block has ‘evolved’”?! And why did Glen say ‘of course’ city blocks ‘evolve’?! Why are you conveniently forgetting this?

    I have already said that ‘change’ is the master category and that ‘evolution’ is a type of change, but that ‘change’ is not a type of evolution. Nobody here has responded to this.

    Language and the terms we choose to communicate with are important!

    Here’s a deal then: you answer with an example, John,  of ‘something that doesn’t evolve,’ other than God (or other real supernatural or divine entities) and I’ll answer your repeated, exaggerative question.

    You are ignoring the powerful philosophical point that I am making by showing that those who cannot ‘limit evolution’ serve to function as if evolution is ‘unlimited.’ You are acting, John, like an ‘evolutionary universalist’ based upon ideology and not on science. And unless you can step back from this, there is no reason to conclude otherwise.

  74. Glen Davidson - #2195

    January 10th 2010

    It’s too bad that Gregory won’t deal with evidence of how language is used when it’s right in front of him.

    Since he won’t, there’s no reason I should do anything but remark on that fact in this comment, and then leave the subject alone.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  75. RBH - #2197

    January 10th 2010

    RJS wrote

    An intelligent design hypothesis must not only demonstrate that natural selection and mutation alone are not enough - but also that there are no other natural processes or influence that combines with natural selection and mutation to achieve the result we see.

    ID faces another task as well if it is to serve as an explanation of natural phenomena: It has to offer an actual explanation!  That is, it has to offer at least some hypotheses about the initial conditions and causal variables that brought about the phenomena that it claims natural processes like those identified by the theory of evolution cannot account for, together with some concrete research proposals to evaluate those hypotheses.  What independent evidence of the design process should we see?  What independent evidence of the manufacturing process used by designing agent(s) should we see?

  76. RBH - #2198

    January 10th 2010

    (continued)

    I have never seen an actual explanation proposed in ID proponents’ writing.  They will say something like, “Well, this or that could not have evolved, so therefore ‘intelligent design’ is the best explanation.”  But the next paragraph is never “And this is how intelligent design explains it: [insert explanation here].”  They come to a full stop just before that paragraph.  All that ID proponents have done is apply a label—“intelligent design”—with no content.  Labels are not explanations.

  77. VMartin - #2199

    January 10th 2010

    RBH

    You think that ID has to offer some proposals instead of criticising darwinian claims. Your position is obviously that darwinism is a serious science. But perhaps it is as scientific as alchemy. Alchemists claimed that they could produce gold in a reagent tube from quicksilver via “purification” and “condensation” (which reminds me of the article inSciAm recommended here how the first cells originated) .
    I hope criticising such nonsense as “purification” and “condensation” doesn’t require proposing other mechanism how to create gold from quicksilver.
    Criticising “natural selection” doesn’t mean you have to offer someting else.

  78. Gregory Arago - #2203

    January 10th 2010

    Glen, do you refer to #2135, a New York Times article as ‘proof’ that cities should be said to ‘evolve’? You’ve got to be kidding!

    I won’t stoop to such a loose level of ‘proof’ if that is what you’re suggesting.

    Sure, of course I wouldn’t argue that people don’t ever use the term ‘evolution’ in trying to explain a variety of human-made things. But that is exactly the point! People over-use ‘evolution’ and the verb ‘to evolve’ in so many ridiculous places that it is impossible to count them all.

    I am curious what BioLogos can do with the term ‘Biologos’ because it doesn’t make much sense as a verb - i.e. ‘to be biologosed.’ Here it seems they may still use the verbs ‘design’ and ‘create’ similarly to how IDists and theistic creationists do.

    Aside: If you google ‘city and development’ and you’ll find roughly 5 times more hits, which demonstrates my reason for highlighting the term ‘development’ in contrast to ‘evolution.’

  79. Gregory Arago - #2211

    January 10th 2010

    Hello RBH,

    You wrote: “ID faces another task as well if it is to serve as an explanation of natural phenomena: It has to offer an actual explanation!”

    Yes, I agree with you. That is why I say the concept duo ‘intelligent design’ belongs more in human-social sciences than in natural physical sciences. It is quite obvious, as Gordon has assumed with his play on words in this thread, that human-made things are ‘designed.’

    Would this be where you would like to offer a ‘multiple designers theory’ (MDT)?

    Likewise, the term ‘evolution’ does not properly belong in human-social sciences, but rather in natural-physical sciences. Yet the problem is that many people over-use the term ‘evolution’ in places that it does not belong with impunity.

    Here Gordon has misused ‘evolution’ and placed limits on ‘design.’ In his view, biological things should not be said to have been ‘designed,’ but human-made things should be said to have ‘evolved.’ Surely, RBH, you see the point.

    - Gregory

  80. John Kwok - #2214

    January 10th 2010

    @ Glen ( # 2195) -

    Sadly I’ve reached a similar conclusion with Gregory too. He seems far more interested in waging a battle of semantics than in coming to grips what are the real issues, of which the most paramount are these:

    1) biological evolution is a well established scientific fact. Deal with it.
    2) The Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution is the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory we have now that explains the fact of biological evolution.
    3) Intelligent Design is not science, period for the reasons you, Gordon, RBH, beaglelady, Karl Giberson, yours truly, Darrel Falk, and last, but not least, Francisco J. Ayala, have explained (ID has never offered any scientifically valid hypotheses - contrary to Meyer’s bizarre claims - nor can it explain anything scientifically.).

  81. John Kwok - #2215

    January 10th 2010

    Gregory -

    Whatever the heck that means, I was not nor was I ever an “evolutionary universalist”. Moreover, as I have noted more than once here, I use “evolution” to refer solely to biological evolution. Your philosophical concerns are irrelevant since they don’t add anything of substantive value in assessing as to whether or not Intelligent Design creationism is - or could be - valid science.

    Am still waiting for your answers to these questions:

    Do you accept the fact of biological evolution? Do you recognize that the Modern Synthesis Theory of Evolution is scientifically now the best, most comprehensive, scientific theory which accounts for the facts of biological explanation, elegantly explaining relevant data from virtually all of biology?

  82. beaglelady - #2217

    January 10th 2010

    What are examples of ‘things that don’t evolve,’ John Kwok? For worldview purposes, I highly doubt you will give an example.

    Be careful, John!  This could be like the riddle scene in Turandot—one wrong answer and you’ll lose your head!

  83. Gordon J. Glover - #2218

    January 10th 2010

    Gregory said, “In [Gordon’s] view, biological things should not be said to have been ‘designed,’ but human-made things should be said to have ‘evolved.’”

    Not true.  My point was the design we find in biology makes more sense in terms of the historical narrative that evolution provides.  The few hundred olefactory pseduogenes I have in my genome were certainly optimized for detecting certain smells—even though they have become vestigial and have been accumulating mutations for millions of years.  The presence of olefactory pseudogenes makes infinitely more sense in terms of our evolutionary history than it does in terms of design.  What designer would start from scratch with mutated genes when other (presumably less important) creatures have working copies?  But if creation was via a natural process that produced the effect of common ancestry, then my pseudogenes make perfect sense.  Now as to whether they were originally designed by ‘mind’ or by ‘circumstance’, that is another question entirely (in my opinion).

    I also do not recommend, in ordinary discourse, to refer to man-mande things as ‘evolving’—but considering the term, in most modest usage, means “change over time”, it is not incorrect to do so.

  84. Gordon J. Glover - #2239

    January 10th 2010

    @John Kwok,

    Ah, I see you’ve been watching my “Intelligent Alien Intervention” series on YouTube!

    http://www.youtube.com/glovergj

  85. John Kwok - #2242

    January 10th 2010

    Gordon -

    Not quite.  I’ve been stating the obvious, that there is indeed far more proof for Klingon Cosmology than there is for Intelligent Design for years now. I even suggested to Dembski - after he sent me an unsolicited e-mail - that he and Behe ought to be writing a textbook on Klingon Cosmology (I might add too that Ken Miller thinks Behe should write a Klingon Biochemistry textbook.).

    Qap’la,

    John

  86. beaglelady - #2243

    January 10th 2010

    Gordon I saw your video and thought it was hilarious. But I like Ken Miller’s idea, too—- a Klingon bio-comical challenge to evolution.  That has real potential.

  87. John Kwok - #2245

    January 10th 2010

    @ beaglelady -

    Ken mentioned this to me with a straight face after we had dinner. He’d probably credit me for the initial concept (invoking Klingons), but I have to credit him for proposing a potential Klingon Biochemistry textbook from Behe.

  88. Gregory Arago - #2260

    January 11th 2010

    “Ah, I see you’ve been watching my “Intelligent Alien Intervention” series on YouTube!” - GJG

    Is Gordon J. Glover proud of his aliens!?

  89. beaglelady - #2263

    January 11th 2010

    As an expert in Klingon Cosmology, Captain John T. Kwok can finally proclaim a universal theory of everything (including green chicks).

  90. Charlie - #2270

    January 11th 2010

    Gordon,

    You said “In biology, the fact that structures show evidence of design, or optimization, is no secret. You can watch any episode of Wild Kingdom and hear the narrator referring to how the cheetah is designed for speed and his teeth are optimized for tearing flesh, etc.”

    By saying design, you must remember that there are actually more mutations that are disadvantageous to a species than ones that help survival and reproduction.  Thus, when looking at the odds of beneficial mutations and the nature driven selection of those mutations, it is clear that the design you speak of is design by the environment not God.

    You say “But sadly, when employed by the Intelligent Design movement, design becomes a polemic to reject natural history rather than a tool to discover it” but how are you employing design?

  91. beaglelady - #2280

    January 11th 2010

    Captain John T. Kwok,

    Actually, I haven’t answered all of Gregory’s questions because I’m afraid I might not get the Correct Answers ©.  To save the universe, therefore, I have re-configured my hair dryer to emit tachyon particles.  It’s a crude solution, but it saves my butt (not to mention the universe) from a wrathful smiting.

    Klingon Cosmology: a universal theory of anything and everything.

  92. Gregory Arago - #2282

    January 11th 2010

    GJG wrote: “the design we find in biology makes more sense in terms of the historical narrative that evolution provides.”

    I would ask what specific ‘design in biology’ you are referring to. But because I’m not an IDist it doesn’t interest me what your answer might be.

    What seems clear is that your strategy copies what has happened already – evolution against creation. Then some folks came along & said why not ‘creation by evolution’? You are saying ‘design by evolution.’ How do these two positions differ?

    The youtube video was ridiculous & unworthy of BioLogos. But then, I am not living in America & not pressured by the ‘culture wars’ there. So perhaps it is reasonable to perceive ID as a threat, thus to mock it in such a way. It seems strange to me, but hey…

    I still find your language frivolous. Words like ‘infinite’ and ‘perfect’? You seem like a good guy who speaks outside of what he knows by education and training.

    If you conflate ‘evolution’ with ‘change’ it’s a serious problem. Someday perhaps you will see how this is so. Until then, I’d recommend reading more HPSS to learn better what science is and isn’t. You are an engineer, by training, right?

  93. Gordon J. Glover - #2283

    January 11th 2010

    @Charlie

    ”...it is clear that the design you speak of is design by the environment not God.”—in the lab, sure.  But my theological convictions are that since God is author of nature, anything that is a consequence of the system He set up can be considered His design.  A non-theist or a pantheist might refer to “nature” as the designer in much the same way.  But such a statement has no scientific utility.

    ”...but how are you employing design?” —simply as a tool by which we can understand the past, and make predictions concerning the present.  Since driveways are optimized for parking and not for drainage, and since fences are designed to keep traffic out, the current arrangement of this particular city block makes more sense in terms of its “evolutionary” history.  And if the presumed narrative actually reflects what happened, then we can infer other information from the paradigm that we would not have access to had we assumed the current arrangement was strictly the consequence of dilerberate planning and not of circumstance.

    Many in the ID movement equate design with diliberate planning, and are therefore forced to offer tortured explanations for things like vestigial structures, pseudogenes, etc…

  94. Gordon J. Glover - #2289

    January 11th 2010

    @Gregory,

    “The youtube video was ridiculous & unworthy of BioLogos.”—translation: I didn’t agree with it and either don’t understand what satire is or have no sense of humor.

    “You seem like a good guy who speaks outside of what he knows by education and training.”—When I read Meyer, I make an attemp to understand his arguement sand deal with the scientific case that he presents on its own merits, I don’t hold it against him that he has never practiced biology professionally or that he has no training that would qualify him to publish about DNA.  Your repeated references to my background and training are getting tiresome.

    “If you conflate ‘evolution’ with ‘change’ it’s a serious problem.”—From Merriam-Webster:

    EVOLUTION: process of change in a certain direction; unfolding: a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state; the process of working out or developing

  95. hmm - #2303

    January 11th 2010

    Gordon:

    “But my theological convictions are that since God is author of nature, anything that is a consequence of the system He set up can be considered His design. “

    I agree. And disagree with Ayala, who claims the opposite.

    “Since driveways are optimized for parking and not for drainage, and since fences are designed to keep traffic out…”

    This is very important point: _____ are optimized or designed for or to _______. You cannot know, whether something is optimized for something, if you don’t know the plan (for what it is optimized). And I think that for example our genome hasn’t maybe been the main purpose of God plan. That’s why I don’t suppose that genome should be optimal (from local human perspective)

    Gordon wrote:

    “Many in the ID movement equate design with diliberate planning, and are therefore forced to offer tortured explanations for things like vestigial structures, pseudogenes, etc…”

    Hmm. I think that the main reason, why they are forced to offer explanations for things you mentioned is not that THEY see those as especially designed, but because their critics claim that their “bad” design arguments rebuts ID.

  96. John Kwok - #2325

    January 11th 2010

    @ Gordon -

    I came up with the concept of Klingon Cosmology independently of your YouTube videos - which I have not seen - years ago. Using the same inane reasoning employed by the Discovery Institute and its sycophants, I have concluded that Klingon Cosmology is real for these reasons:

    1) Klingons are real since they are seen often on television and in movies.
    2) An official Klingon Language Institute exists, which is based in North America.
    3) Religious ceremonies are conducted often in Klingon.
    4) The Bible and Shakespeare’s plays have been translated into Klingon.

    I have yet to see any “proof” for Intelligent Design that is as robust (or as well entrenched) as the proof for Klingon Cosmology.

  97. Charlie - #2354

    January 11th 2010

    Gordon,

    You said “my theological convictions are that since God is author of nature, anything that is a consequence of the system He set up can be considered His design”

    If you accredit everything to God, what is God to you? Is it an actual higher intelligence that set the physical laws of nature?  Do you agree that your belief in God is supported by no evidence and therefore the belief must be based solely on faith (in otherwords you believe an unsupported hypothesis)?

  98. John Kwok - #2567

    January 13th 2010

    @ gabriel -

    Gregory claims that he isn’t an ID creationist nor a DI supporter. But he seems to know Casey Luskin and has made claims consistent with the DI party line. Would you have other online instances where Gregory has demonstrated his allegiance to the DI and its pathetic band of mendacious intellectual pornographers?

    (WEBMASTER: If you delete this, I will definitely mention this particular post over at Panda’s Thumb.).

  99. Gregory Arago - #2669

    January 15th 2010

    Gordon wrote: “I also do not recommend, in ordinary discourse, to refer to man-mande things as ‘evolving’—but considering the term, in most modest usage, means “change over time”, it is not incorrect to do so.”

    Are we having some kind of extra-ordinary discourse here?

    In scientific terms, ‘evolution’ does not involve agency, choice, planning, goal-orientation, etc. One cannot ‘evolve’ something with a ‘design’ in their mind. ‘Telic evolution’ is a contradiction, at least according to biologists. M. Gene is welcome to comment on this!

    When T. Dobzhansky said that “Prebiological natural selection is a contradiction in terms” we witness some limits to ‘natural selection’ by one of the main founders of the MS.

    Though I am not a biologist, like Gordon, there do seem to be very good reasons to consider alternatives to ‘universal evolutionism.’ Is anyone here opposed to this?!

    The question then to Gordon is: if ‘evolution’ is simply ‘change-over-time,’ then what doesn’t change?

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