Crabby Christians or Nebulous Data?

December 11, 2009
Category: Guest Features

Crabby Christians or Nebulous Data?

"Science and the Sacred" is pleased to feature essays from various guest voices in the science-and-religion dialogue. Today's entry was written by Gordon J. Glover. Gordon J. Glover holds degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Ocean Engineering and is the author of Beyond the Firmament: Understanding Science and Creation. A veteran of the U.S. Navy, he now resides in the Washington, D.C. area where he works and runs the popular blog, "Beyond the Firmament".

Scientists who confront Bible-believing Christians with the physical evidence of theologically-challenging views like old-earth geology or common ancestry are usually incredulous when their well-crafted and well-supported arguments fall on deaf ears. How can something so obvious to one person be so easily dismissed by another?

In my own Reformed Presbyterian tradition, I have found that our theological presuppositions typically serve as the lens through which the natural world is observed and understood. When faced with apparent conflict between science and faith, the conservative knee-jerk reaction is to insist without equivocation that special revelation is a more reliable guide to ultimate truth than natural revelation. Without this ultimate reference point, it is feared that our sin natures would prevent us from seeing the world clearly. But if Christian theology is merely our fallible attempt to systematize the biblical data, then certainly we are prone to goofing that up as well. And given the estimated 38,000 Christian denominations spread across the world today, I’d say we’ve goofed it up quite a bit!

Interestingly, we do have the ability to faithfully interpret scientific data when no theology is at stake. For instance, Christians who tend to perpetually argue over the most trivial points of doctrine would probably all agree that chlorophyll is green, ice melts at 0 degrees C, and the universal gravitational constant is 6.67300 × 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2. This leads me to believe that theology can also be a dirty lens that blurs our observations of the natural world. Is it possible that scientific data can help Christians sort out good theology from bad theology?

Consider the great supernovae explosions that occurred in the years 1006, 1054, 1181, 1572 and 1604. Details of these incredible events were dutifully recorded by the world’s great astronomers. But the 1054 and 1181 explosions were not mentioned by any European astronomers. Some have cited bad weather as the probable cause, but the 1054 supernova, which is known today as the Crab Nebula, was visible in broad daylight for 23 days and at night for 653 days. Its sudden and violent appearance was recorded by Chinese, Arab, Japanese and even North American Indian astronomers, but for some reason nobody in Europe seemed to care. The 1181 supernova was visible at night for 185 days and was recorded by both Chinese and Japanese astronomers. But once again, Europeans paid scarce attention to it. Perhaps there was more going on than perpetual cloudiness?

In the years following SN1006, European astronomical science gave way to primitive superstitions and occult astrology. The conflation of Aristotle’s ancient cosmology with Christian tradition seemed to give theological support to the Greek notion that everything beyond the sub-lunar firmament was perfect, eternal, and unchanging. We now recognize this as a clear-cut case of bad exegesis based on incorrect assumptions about creation, but at the time this doctrine was considered non-negotiable. While Chinese astronomers referred to these supernovae explosions as “guest stars” European astronomers would have considered the existence of heavenly guests contrary to theologically acceptable science. As a result, the supernovae were not seen as new scientific data to be analyzed and understood, but as omens and curses to be feared—as was the comet of 1066 which nearly threw medieval Europe into widespread panic.

But why is there no mention of SN1054? Some say the object could have been viewed as an atmospheric phenomenon rather than a heavenly event—similar to how comets were understood; but even passing comets were dutifully recorded. Others have blamed the Ecclesiastical disputes between Rome and Constantinople, which came to a head in July of that same year. Pope Leo IX excommunicated the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church only two weeks after SN1054 exploded. Given the political turmoil of the Christian world, it’s quite possible that SN1054 was not seen as a natural phenomenon to be studied, but a supernatural omen marking the schism between East and West. Perhaps it was bad luck to even mention it? Since no written records of the event exist in Christendom, we may never know for sure.

The lesson here is that we Christians must be careful not to ignore obvious facts and data just because they don’t seem compatible with our theology. Often times these inconvenient truths can provide exciting new biblical and theological perspectives, and they can open up areas of scientific investigation that were once considered off limits to believers. For example, after Nicholas Copernicus pointed out the flaws in Aristotle’s earth-centered cosmology, more people were willing to test other aspects of the traditional system. Eventually it became theologically acceptable to study the material changes in the heavens—and just in time for the 1572 and 1604 supernovae! By demonstrating that these transient celestial objects were distant enough to occupy the “immutable” heavenly realm, the Renaissance astronomers began a difficult journey that would eventually liberate Christian theology from the scientific shackles of Greco-Roman astronomy.

It might not have seemed so at the time, but clearly this was a win-win situation for both science and theology—a victory achieved not by new exegetical insights, but through scientific discovery. It is definitely possible for scientific data to be misunderstood, but if Christians can admit that the Scriptures can also be misunderstood, then there is hope for a constructive dialogue between science and faith.

Filed Under:
science, religion, BioLogos, supernatural, evolution, data, theology, astronomy, nature,

Comments (59)

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  1. BioLogosFan - #900

    December 11th 2009

    Great post, Gordon!  Glad to see this new section of the site –– very well done!

  2. Fred Wilcoxson - #901

    December 11th 2009

    Paul’s perception was that: ‘Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.’ God continues to reveal who He is through natural revelation. His light is beginning to penetrate the man created veil that clouds the mirror. God’s creation is magnificent and man has but scratched the surface of who He is through scientific discovery.

  3. Glen Davidson - #902

    December 11th 2009

    One might even note that it’s been recognized by Christians that the heavens evolve.

    My point is not that using the word “evolve” equivocally proves anything at all.  It’s that if the evidence for the “heavens” changing in both the past and the present can be taken at face value, it is hard to see why the evidence for life changing in the past and the present by very different processes should not also be taken at face value.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  4. Beaglelady - #903

    December 11th 2009

    Excellent post, Gordon.

  5. Mere_Christian - #909

    December 12th 2009

    “European astronomers would have considered the existence of heavenly guests contrary to theologically acceptable science. As a result, the supernovae were not seen as new scientific data to be analyzed and understood, but as omens and curses to be feared—as was the comet of 1066 which nearly threw medieval Europe into widespread panic.”

    ///

    Maybe would should just stop caring about the influence of europeans on Christian truth. It is quite apparent that they have screwed up just about every aspect of the faith. 

    And, since Americans are basically europeans, or better yet europeanized, we should expect a shakey theology. I mean, look at how pathetic Dr. Collins answers Bill Maher on the question of validity of the Gospel message.

    There are exceptions of course (C.S. Lewis), but you have mentioned the silliness of thousands of denominations. There’s a reason for that.

    That’s NOT the fault of Jesus or his (original) disciples. Their message is quite the done deal.

  6. Charlie - #920

    December 14th 2009

    You stated “The lesson here is that we Christians must be careful not to ignore obvious facts and data…”  I agree but I think it is equally important for Christians to understand that there are also natural processes that we as humans are not even close to understanding.  I agree that everyone should believe in something if “obvious facts and data” support it, but keep their minds open and accept the unknown.  Do we know what happens after death? Scientifically, no.  Do you need to know the answer regardless of if there is evidence to support an answer?  I personally would like to know but humbly accept that we just don’t know; however I understand there are those that believe when science does not have the answer, religion does.  I just want to tell those people to make sure to keep your minds open and try to accept the unknown; it’s what we as a society strive for and it is what I feel makes humanity so special.

  7. Martin Rizley - #936

    December 15th 2009

    Gordon,
    “It is definitely possible for scientific data to be misunderstood, but if Christians can admit that the Scriptures can also be misunderstood, then there is hope for a constructive dialogue between science and faith.”
    It is not only creationists who need to admit that their understanding of Scripture may need revision, but also theistic evolutionists.  The problem as I see it, Gordon, is that as long as TE’s dismiss the serious exegetical objections that conservative Christians have to Darwinism as owing to a “crabby” attitude; as long as they see their refusal to regard Genesis 1-11 as myth as a “knee-jerk reaction,” I believe there will continue to be “little hope for constructive dialogue” between YEC’s and TE’s.  Let me ask, do you attribute your own passionate opposition to the (alleged) mangling of scientific data by creationist writers to a “crabby attitude” on your part?  Does your rejection of creationist views stem from nothing deeper than a “knee-jerk reaction”?    I’m sure you would say, “Of course not!  My views on Genesis and geology have been formed through thoughtful, reflective, prayerful and informed meditation on this subject.”  Then why do you attribute to your opponents what you would never attribute to yourself—a close-minded, crabby, reactionary outlook?  Why can’t you admit that creationists (many of them, at least) have arrived at their views through thoughtful, reflective, prayerful and informed meditation on this subject, just like you?  They are fully aware of the difficulties in reconciling the data of Scripture with the data of science, and freely admit those difficulties; but they continue to hold their view of Genesis 1-11 as history based on their conviction that this is what the Scriptures teach, and to deny it would involve “mangling” the teaching of Scripture. 
      What you need to understand, Gordon, is that biblical inerrantists like myself are just as offended by the shameless “mangling” of data as you are.  We don’t believe the biblical data concerning the historicity of Genesis 1-11 is “nebulous” at all.  It is as clear as daylight that these chapters are to be interpreted as historical narrative, not myth.  Take, for example, the genealogy of Luke 3, which alludes to Adam as the earliest ancestor of Jesus.  It is clear that Luke intended his readers to regard the figure of Adam as every bit as historical as Abraham, David, or Joseph.  The data is not nebulous; those who say that it is cannot escape the charge of obscurantism.  From a biblical perspective, one can deny the historicity of Adam only by “mangling” the data of Scripture and engaging in an act of incredible self-deception (the very charge you lay against people like myself who say that God sent a global flood upon the earth.) 
      What I don’t understand is why you and all the people at the Biologos foundation are so concerned to see Christian ministers like myself repent of our alleged “dishonesty” when we “lie” to our congregations about Adam and Eve, the fall, the flood, etc.  You say that God in ancient times edified His people through such “lies.”  Well, if God edified His people in the past through such “lies,” why do you assume He would not do the same thing today?  I mean, if God blessed the presentation of myth as fact in ancient times, perhaps He will do the same thing today.  Instead of trying to get us preachers to repent of lying to our congregations, therefore, you ought to say, “Go right on lying, brother, for in so doing, God’s people will be built up in truth!”   
        Could it be that, deep down, Gordon, you know that God of truth is never served by lies, no matter how pious?  He cannot communicate truth to people through “cleverly crafted fables.”  He never has, and He never will.  That is the main reason why I regard the first eleven chapters of Genesis as historically factual; because I know that God speaks only truth.  I cannot “mangle” the data of Scripture by denying the obvious, nor can I impugn the character of God by saying that, in ancient times, He communicated truth to people through myths presented as facts.  Does that I mean I see no difficulty in reconciling the teaching of Scripture with the data of science; no, it simply means that, whatever difficulties exists, they will not go away by “mangling” the Scriptures to make them say what they clearly do not say.

  8. Peter Hansen - #957

    December 17th 2009

    Martin,

    Your post is dripping with crabby sarcasm, knee-jerk remarks, and bad theology….I’ll comment on only one point:  if God can’t communicate truth through “cleverly crafted fables” then your going to have to disregard all of Christ’s parables.  Gordon is not the one “mangling scripture to make them say what they clearly do not say.”  In reality, Martin, you are the one doing this by dogmatically asserting that ancient myths, written within an ancient, pre-scientific culture where myths were the common parlance, have to be interpreted according to a modern notion of fact.  Thank you, Martin, you couldn’t have demonstrated Gordon’s point about crabby Christians and nebulous data more beautifully.

  9. Martin Rizley - #967

    December 17th 2009

    Peter,
      Keep in mind that the Old Testaments prophets and the apostle Paul sometimes used sarcasm in their rebuke of individuals who were twisting the Scriptures to support heretical teachings.  Paul referred to his opponents at Corinth as “super apostles” and expressed his wish that those who tried to add circumcision to faith for salvation would go the whole way and castrate themselves altogether!  Jesus himself used a touch of sarcasm when he described the Pharisees as those who “strain at gnats and swallow camels.”  Admittedly, sarcasm should be used with discretion, but when the falsehoods being promoted are so outrageously and patently false, I believe sarcasm is well deserved.   
      Moreover, there is a difference between merely expressing a “crabby attitude” and using the rhetorical devise of “reductio ad absurdam” to expose the absurdity of false teaching by showing its logical implications.  That is what I have done in my response above, by showing that if God taught truth through lies in the past, then it is logical to believe He would use the same method for teaching truth in our own day; therefore, the people at the Biologos foundation have nothing to be upset about when Christian preachers today instruct their congregations to believe that Adam and Eve, the fall, the flood, etc., were real historical persons and events, for in so doing, they are simply teaching their congregations what Luke and Peter and Paul taught the churches of the first century!  If God blessed such “lying” from the mouths of Luke and Paul and Peter back then, why would anyone doubt that He would bless such “lying” from the mouths of Christian preachers today?  Or do you deny that Paul and Peter and Luke taught the first century Christians that Adam was a real historical figure, the first father of the human race, through whom the whole race fell into sin and from whom Jesus Christ is descended according to the flesh through Adam’s son, Seth?  Do you deny that they taught those early Christians that the flood was a real event that took place in the past?  If you deny that—then watch out, because you are in for a well-deserved rebuke dripping with sarcasm!  Why?  Because such a denial is so patently false, those who make it cannot escape the charge of deliberate obscurantism.  They are sticking their heads in the sand and mangling the Scriptures beyond recognition in a desperate attempt to marshal biblical support for their novel ideas.
      My point is simply this: if someone is going to deny the historicity of Genesis 1-11, then they ought to have the intellectual integrity to admit that they are teaching something different about that portion of the Scriptures than what the apostolic writers taught.  They ought to admit that, by calling Adam a “symbolic figure” and the story of the flood a “myth,” they are directly contradicting the teaching of the New Testament regarding both Adam and the flood.   
      You may not agree with the New Testament writers in their views of Adam, the fall, the flood, but you ought to be honest enough to admit that, at that point, you are departing from what the apostles themselves believed and taught.  Why can’t theistic evolutionists who deny the historicity of Genesis 1-11 admit that?  Why can’t they say, as I heard one liberal theologian say, “Matthew believed one thing; I believe something different.”  Let them have the intellectual honesty to say, “The New Testament teaches one thing about Adam, the fall, and the flood; I believe something different.”  Then those who believe the apostolic view of Genesis 1-11 can respond by saying, “Thank you for honesty; however, I will go on believing what the New Testament writers believed concerning these matters, for I regard the New Testament interpretation of the Old Testament as normative.”  It is the patently false assertion that New Testament teaching on these matters is “nebulous” and “unclear” that elicits a well-deserved rebuke dripping with sarcasm.

  10. Martin Rizley - #971

    December 17th 2009

    Peter,
    One further point.  Jesus’ parables are not “cleverly crafted fables.”  They were made up stories or illustrations (understood as such) which were designed to illustrate spiritual truth.  When Peter in his second epistle denounces “cleverly crafted fables,” he is talking about made up stories presented as historical fact in order to deceive people.  In other words, a cleverly crafted fable, in contrast to a parable, is a lying account of what took place in the historical past.  Peter points out that the gospel narrative of what took place on the Mount of Transfiguration was no “cleverly crafted fable” but an eyewitness account of what really took place on that “holy mountain.”  Later in that same epistle, Peter denounces those who would dismiss the flood narrative as if it were a cleverly crafted fable by referring to them as “scoffers. . .walking according to their own lusts” (2 Peter 3:2-7).  So I repeat what I said—God never has, and never will, communicate truth through cleverly crafted fables.  He can and did communicate truth in the form of parables during the ministry of Jesus, however.

  11. Gordon J. Glover - #985

    December 18th 2009

    Martin,

    The purpose of blog comments are to engage the subject matter in the original post.  Never once did I mention the historicity of Adam and Eve and the only comment I made about our use of Scripture was reference to how medieval Europe mistakenly conflated Aristotles cosmology with Christian theology.

    And the title of the post is obviously a play on words with reference to what’s known today as the Crab Nebula—which is about 6500 light years away.  Since the photons generated by its explosion did not reach earth until 1054, that means the event occurred about 1500 years prior to creation.  Moreover, before a star can even reach the supernova stage, it must burn for millions (or billions) of years depending on its mass. 

    So, Martin—did this event really happen?  Or is it an illusion God created to test our faith in Young Earth Creationism?  Or perhaps the YECs are making the same mockery of Scripture that medieval Christians made when they tried to build a scientific worldview via biblical exegesis? 

    Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

  12. Martin Rizley - #991

    December 18th 2009

    Gordon,
    I understand that you are making a play on words in your title; even so, the implication of the title is that Christians who reject the evolutionary paradigm do so because of a crabby attitude, rather than because of a very serious theological objection to jettisoning the principle of “self-referentiality” in the interpretation of Scripture.  This is a very serious theological divide between those professing Christians who believe the Scriptures can be interpreted in a self-referential manner and those who do not, and it doesn’t help to trivialize matters by suggesting that this divide is caused simply by a “crabby” attitude on the part of some Christians who are simply unwilling to grow in knowledge.  The issue is much deeper than that, and the theological stakes of abandoning the principle of self-referentiality in the interpretation Scripture is much higher than you let on.

  13. Martin Rizley - #992

    December 18th 2009

    Gordon,
    As far as the example concerning the Crab Nebula, the first question I would ask when it comes to interpreting the scientific data is this:  what light does the Scripture itself throw on the question of the age of the universe?  I personally believe the Scriptural data allows for either an old or a young universe (as opposed to an old or young “biosphere”).  Since the first three days were not solar days, strictly speaking, we cannot be dogmatic (in my opinion)  about their precise duration.  Clearly, they were 24-hour like days, in that each day involved a complete rotational cycle of light and darkness, but that does not mean that all six days were necessarily of uniform duration.  It is possible that the initial period of darkness described in Genesis 1:2 lasted for a very long time.  So while I reject the idea of creation days that are purely metaphorical, I see no reason why some of the days could not have been “stretched” by God to any conceivable length (God “stretched” a day to twice its length in Joshua 10).  That would have allowed time for light to travel from the Crab Nebula even in the way that modern science claims.

  14. Gordon J. Glover - #995

    December 18th 2009

    Martin, if you really take the self-referential interpretation of scripture, why bother trying to engage the extra-biblical data, like supernova explosions, while doing exegesis?  Your explanation of solar days vs. non solar days is mere special pleading. 

    In fact, were it not for modern astronomy, there would be no issue with the Genesis days.  According to anceint astronomy, the light that separated day from night eminated from the firmament itself and was completely independent of the solar disk.  Therefore, what we might refer to as a solar day had nothing to do with the sun, but rather the daily turn of the celestial sphere (or firmament) which was illuminated on one side, dark on the other.  The sun was believed to merely “add to the splendor of the day” (to quote Origen).

    And as I’ve said many times, a truly self-referential scientific hermeneutic would drive one to embrace a geocentric cosmology.  So either be consistent and ignore all extra-biblical evidence that was unknown to the original authors/audience, or drop the pretense that you are somehow more “true” to the Bible than the rest of us.

  15. Martin Rizley - #998

    December 18th 2009

    Gordon,
    We engage extra-biblical data while doing exegesis, because sometimes extra-biblical data helps to bring to light pieces of biblical data that are being overlooked.  Classic example:  Christians used to think that the Bible taught geocentricity because of the fact that the Scripture says that the world “cannot be moved.”  However, Galileo’s studies “nudged” the church to examine the Scriptures more closely,  leading to discovery that it had misunderstood biblical teaching.  Since the psalmist says of himself, “I shall not be moved,“ clearly, this phrase has nothing to do with physical immobility.  It means that no one will be able to throw the psalmist “off course” as he commits his way to the Lord.  Likewise, the earth will not be moved, not in the sense that it will remain immobile at the center of the universe, but in the sense that it will never deviate from the course the Lord has ordained for it!  Thus, the church never had any biblical reason to believe in geocentricity.  Shoddy exegesis was the culprit, not the insufficiency of Scripture to interpret itself; but God used the data of science to bring shoddy exegesis to light.

  16. Martin Rizley - #999

    December 18th 2009

    Gordon,
    Recognizing the fact that the six days of creation were not necessarily of uniform duration involves no special pleading.  Genesis 1:5 defines a day in compositional, not durational, terms.  A day is a period of time made up of a day and a night—one complete rotational cycle of light and darkness.  In our own solar system, we have examples of solar days (on Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, etc.)  that vary in their duration from our 24 hour days.  The first three days of creation were not even solar days, so how can we say that we know for sure their precise duration?  Calvin acknowledged that the light of the first three days may have enveloped the entire globe simultaneously, being withdrawn at intervals by God with no physical mechanism (such as earth’s rotation) governing the transition from day to night.  The text clearly says that the sun, moon, and stars were not set in place to rule the day and the night until the fourth day.  So I see no special pleading in acknowledging that we are ignorant of the precise duration of the period of creation.  To say that we know for sure that God brought all things into being in a period of 144 hours assumes too much concerning our knowledge of the duration of the creation days.

  17. peter Enns - #1033

    December 19th 2009

    Martin,

    You wrote, “We engage extra-biblical data while doing exegesis, because sometimes extra-biblical data helps to bring to light pieces of biblical data that are being overlooked.”

    Replace “sometimes” with “always” and then you are on the right track. There is nothing Scripture says that does not REQUIRE “extra-biblical data.”  Even a statement like “the grass is green” would require extra-biblical knowledge “grass” and “green.” This is why truly orthodox theology understands that necessary interplay between general and special revelation—which is why no one should be on the move to force an unworkable separation between them.

    Great post, Gordon.

  18. Martin Rizley - #1062

    December 20th 2009

    Dr. Enns,
    I think we are using the term “extra-biblical data” in two different ways.  I am not denying the fact that there is a certain measure of “common knowledge” that human beings share which makes it possible for words to serve as a vehicle of communication.  The Bible assumes that people generally know what “grass” and “green” means, for example.  But when you say that extra-biblical knowledge is needed to interpret the Scriptures, you want to press that to mean that some type of hidden, esoteric, highly specialized knowledge is needed to interpret the Scriptures correctly—knowledge that was literally inaccessible to the apostles and to the church of the first nineteen centuries of the Christian era and which has only recently come to light.  You make the knowledge of ANE literary forms, unknown to Christ’s apostles, the essential “key” to unlock the true meaning of the Scriptures.  That makes the Bible sort of like a puzzle box with certain pieces missing—pieces available only to those initiated in the esoteric “mysteries” of ANE literature; they alone are qualified to “complete” the puzzle, for they alone have the “missing pieces.”

  19. Peter Enns - #1063

    December 20th 2009

    Martin,

    Hidden? Esoteric? Every high school student who has taken a “Bible as Lit.” course is aware of the basic outline of the impact of ANE lit.

    Also, there is no need to personalize this if *I* am pressing the importance of these materials for understanding the Bible. No one—no one—can turn a blind eye to what our growing knowledge of the ancient world has affected how we understand Scripture.

    The fact that we understand things about, say cosmic origins, that Moses, Isaiah, and Paul did not is fact that has to be dealt with theologically—as many people have.

  20. beaglelady - #1076

    December 21st 2009

    Martin,

    The ancients really did believe that the earth was fixed and did not move. They believed in a 3-tier universe with the heavens, above the earth and the underworld below the earth. Please consult a Bible dictionary. But if the earth was believed to be rotating, did it take the heavens and the underworld along for the ride?

  21. Martin Rizley - #1135

    December 23rd 2009

    Dr. Enns,
    My point is that what has really affected our understanding of Scripture is a growing knowledge of the Scripture itself, which has sometimes been triggered by advances in science forcing the church to look more closely at the text of Scripture.  That was the case at the time of Galileo, where we see the church coming to a better understanding of the Bible through new exegetical insights.  The discovery the church made at that time was not that the Bible teaches heliocentrism as opposed to geocentrism, but rather, that the biblical texts on which the church had been basing its dogmatic geocentrist views taught nothing whatsoever about cosmology.  Once it was understood (by comparing Scripture with Scripture)  that the phrase “cannot be moved” has nothing to do with the physical immobility of the earth, the ground was cleared exegetically for Christians to accept a heliocentric cosmology.  Even so, belief in a heliocentric cosmology is by no means of dogma of our faith, precisely because the Scripture itself (the sole foundation of church doctrine) teaches nothing about cosmology.

  22. Martin Rizley - #1136

    December 23rd 2009

    Dr. Enns,
    In conclusion, what I am saying is that Gordon Glover is essentially wrong when he says that theological “victory” (new theologoical inisghts) are achieved not by new exegetical insights, but through scientific discovery.  On the contrary, all real progress in theology always comes through new exegetical insights into the text of Scripture, and never through scientific discovery alone.  The “assured results of science” in themselves should never be allowed to determine the content of our faith as Christians, for that would be to abandon the principle of self-referentiality that underlies the Protestant doctrine of “Sola Scriptura. ”  Exegetical insights into the meaning of Scripture should be the only thing that ultimately determines the content of our faith, and those insights are available to all men, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit and by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

  23. beaglelady - #1168

    December 24th 2009

    Martin,

    Are you going to answer my question?

    And what do you make of the firmament—you know, the hard, shiny dome covering the earth?

  24. Martin Rizley - #1176

    December 24th 2009

    Beagle Lady,
    Can you point to a single passage in the Scripture itself which teaches what you allege that it teaches about the nature of the firmament?  I would like to know chapter and verse.

  25. Martin Rizley - #1192

    December 25th 2009

    Beagle lady,
    Are you saying that the universe is in no sense whatsoever a three-tiered universe?  Are all of God’s creatures dwelling on the same “plane of existence”?  Are not the saints of God in heaven dwelling on a much higher plane of blessedness than we do here on earth?    Are not the damned in hell dwelling far, far below us in terms of the misery of their condition?  Did not God created the physical universe to reflect realities in the spiritual realm?  I believe that God made the heavens to teach us something about His glory and the exalted status fo those who go into His presence at death.  Likewise, I believe that He made the earth below us, with its dark, deep caverns and narrow, confined tunnels to fill us with a sense of dread concerning the condition of those who die in their sins, away from the glory of God.  They descend into a condition of abject misery from which they will not “arise.”  Thus, I believe that we are in a sense living in a three-tier universe; only, the physical world around us is simply a dim reflection of the spiritual world which it mirrors and to which the “three-tier” language found in Scripture ultimately refers.  .

  26. Martin Rizley - #1193

    December 25th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    Regarding whether or not the Bible teaches that the earth is flat with a solid dome over it,  etc., check out the following websites—www.emperorswithoutclothes.com   and www.tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html

  27. Beaglelady - #1209

    December 25th 2009

    Martin asked,

    Can you point to a single passage in the Scripture itself which teaches what you allege that it teaches about the nature of the firmament?  I would like to know chapter and verse.


    The Hebrew word raqia is translated as firmament in the KJV. Other English translations render it as as sky, dome, vault or whatever.

    In Genesis 1:6-8 the firmament is created to separate the waters in the watery chaotic world; so we end up with waters above the firmament and waters below the firmament.
    See also Ps 148:4

    The firmament supports the heavenly bodies, which are set in it (Gen. 1:14)
    The firmament even has “windows” and “doors” (Gen. 7:11; Isa. 24:18; Mal. 3:10) for the rain
     
    The root of raqia is raqa, which means to “flatten,” “stamp down,” “spread out,” “hammer out.”

    Ex 39:3 and Isa. 40:19 use raqa for pounding metals into thin plates.

    See also Job 37.18, Ex 24:10,  Job 22:14, Ezek 1:22

  28. Beaglelady - #1210

    December 25th 2009

    Continuing my discussion of the firmament…

    The firmament is shiny and bright and shows the glory of God; e.g.,  Daniel 12:3 speaks of the brightness of the firmament

    Most of my information above comes from Evolutionary Creation by Denis Lamoureux
    . The Oxford Bible Commentary and other Bible dictionaries and study Bibles I have seen say much the same thing.

    I’d also like to mention that my favorite verse about the firmament is Ps 19:1, which says,

    The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    Whenever I read it, I naturally think of that great chorus in Haydn’s magnificent oratorio “The Creation.”

  29. Beaglelady - #1211

    December 25th 2009

    Are you saying that the universe is in no sense whatsoever a three-tiered universe?

    I’m saying just what I said, which was the following:

    “The ancients really did believe that the earth was fixed and did not move. They believed in a 3-tier universe with the heavens, above the earth and the underworld below the earth.”

  30. Martin Rizley - #1212

    December 25th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    It’s interesting that you say your information comes from Lamoureaux.  The website I directed you to above—www.emperorswithoutclothes.com—reponds directly to Lamoureaux’s claims.  He shows that while the idea of firmness or hardness is inherent in the word firmament, the translation of “raqia” as firmament really derives from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament dating back to about 200 B.C.  The Hellenized Jews thought that the spherical earth was covered by a hard spherical shell.  Consequently, they translated “raqia” wih the Greek word ‘stereoma’ which means firm.  When Jerome produced the Latin Vulgate, he worked from the Greek Septuagint and used the Latin word “firmamentum” which conveys the same meaning as “stereoma.”  Our English word comes from this Latin word.
    So the firmness in “firmament” is derived from the erroneous Greek cosmology of 200 B.C.  The original meaning of the Hebrew term raqia is that of “expanse,” however, and that is how it should be translated (that’s how the NIV and the NASB translate it).  I believe that God originally created an expanse—earth’s atmosphere— to separate the waters below from the waters above.

  31. Martin Rizley - #1214

    December 25th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    What particular people in the ancient world believed is one thing; what the New Testament writers taught is another.  It is clear to me that the New Testament writers did not intend for all of their statements about the realm of departed spirits to be taken literally.  When they describe the demons as being held in chains, it is obvious that they didn’t mean that spirit beings can be held by physical chains.  When Jesus says that the rich man in hell wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue, he didn’t mean that disembodied spirits in hell have literal, physical tongues, or that their thirst can be quenched with literal, earthly water. I don’t you give the biblical writers credit enough to speak of the spiritual realities using earthly figures.  When they spoke of heaven as being above us and hell as being below us, they were using earthly figures to describe spiritual realities.  They understood that the structure of the physical realm reflects the structure of the spiritual realm and they spoke of the latter using language derived from the former.  It is common in the New Testament, to speak of spiritual realities in terms of the earthly figures that symbolize and represent them.

  32. Beaglelady - #1217

    December 25th 2009

    You totally ignored my post. I’m dealing with the original Hebrew word raqia. (The OT is written in Hebrew.) 

    Let’s try again.

    The root of raqia is raqa, which means to “flatten,” “stamp down,” “spread out,” “hammer out.”

    Ex 39:3 and Isa. 40:19 use raqa for pounding metals into thin plates.

    “can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?”
    - Job 37.18

    Also, the raqia/firmament separates the waters above from the waters below, and the heavenly bodies are set in it.  So I should think it would have to be rather hard.


    I did take a look at your anti-Lamoureux, Catholic-hating, whack-a-doodle creationist site.  They decided that the text of the Bible has been corrupted.  (Something both Mormons and Muslims would agree with).

  33. Martin Rizley - #1222

    December 26th 2009

    Beagle Lady,
    If you looked at the website, then there is little I have to add to his arguments exposing Lamoreaux’s shameful attempt to impute error to the biblical writers and to Jesus himself.  I don’t agree that the text of Genesis 1 has been corrupted, but apart from that one point, I found most of the website’s arguments very convincing, and not at all “whack-a-doodle” as you say.  How could anyone disagree, for example, that the context of Jesus’ statement regarding mustard seeds was not world botany, but Jewish gardening practice?  To call Jesus statement an “error” is therefore a shameful example of ignoring context to make someone appear to be in error when they are not.  I found what the website said about the cosmology of the Septuagint translators influencing their translation of the word “raqia” very enlightening.  It is a well-known fact that a translators’s cultural or theological bias can influence their translation of a text (that is why many modern translations are done by a team of translators who check each other’s work, rather than by a single individual). 
    .

  34. Martin Rizley - #1223

    December 26th 2009

    Beagle lady,
    Concerning the Hebrew verb “raqa” it is true that it means “to beat out” or to “spread out.”  There is no question that the sky appeared to the ancient Hebrews like a tent, or blanket, or dome or curtain that God had spread out over the earth, so it is not surprising they should choose a word for “sky” that means something “spread out” over the earth.  To read into that statement a more specific cosmology, however, by saying that the Hebrews definitely taught that the sky was a “hard dome” mistakes the language of analogy and metaphor for the language of science.  At times, the biblical writers compare the sky to a dome; but at other times, they compare it to a curtain which God has spread out over the earth.  Clearly, they were not asserting anything about the relative firmness or hardness of the substance from which the sky is made.  To me the teaching of Genesis 1 is clear; at creation God made a “spread out” expanse to separate the waters below from the waters suspended above the earth’s atmosphere. To say that the Bible definitely teaches that God made a hard dome to hold the waters up goes beyond the text of Scripture.

  35. beaglelady - #1224

    December 26th 2009

    “they were not asserting anything about the relative firmness or hardness of the substance from which the sky is made.”

    can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
    - Job 37.18
     


    —————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-


    And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    Gen 1:16-17

    Is not Genesis clear that the sun and moon are set in the firmament, and the heavenly sea is above it?  Wouldn’t the firmament have to be pretty hard to have the sun and moon set in it?

  36. Martin Rizley - #1228

    December 26th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    In Job 37, Elihu is describing God’s marvelous power revealed in the earth’s atmosphere at different times.  We read of God’s sending the rain in the autumn and spring, His sending the snow and ice in winter, and His withholding the rain and causing drought in the summer.  It is in this context that he describes the heavens as “hard (or strong) as a mirror of cast bronze” (v. 18).  Elsewhere in the Old Testament, the image of “bronze” heavens is used to describe unremitting drought (Deuteronomy 28:22-23); the “hardness” of the bronze sky relates therefore either to its appearance or its unyielding character as a moisture-retaining barrier.  The language is clearly poetic like the statement that God produces ice with His “breath” (i. e., a chill wind) or thunder with the “roar of His voice.”  If the Old Testament writers meant for us to interpret their words literally, what are we to make of the statement that God spreads out the sky like a canopy or tent (Isaiah 40:22)?  Canopies and tents aren’t hard.  What are we to make of the fact that God will “roll up the heavens” like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4)?  Hard domes can’t be rolled up like a scroll.

  37. Martin Rizley - #1229

    December 26th 2009

    Beagle lady,
    You will notice that the words “sun” and “moon” do not occur in Genesis 1, and that is because Moses is not speaking of the sun and moon in terms of their “cosmic” identity as astral bodies in outer space, far beyond earth’s atmosphere (a concept foreign to him); rather, he speaks of them in terms of their “functional” identity as lights in earth’s sky.  In other words, the language is not the technical language of science, but rather the pre-scientific language of visual description.  Moses is describing God’s work of creation in phenomenological terms.  On the fourth day, the sun and moon, in their functional role as “lights” in earth’s sky, were fully formed and placed in the sky by God.  The “raw material” from which these two “lights” were fashioned may have existed way out there in outer space prior to the fourth day (after God, we are told in verse 1 that God “created the heavens and the earth” on day one):  but in their functional role as “lights” in earth’s sky, the sun and moon did not exist until the fourth day.

  38. beaglelady - #1232

    December 26th 2009

    what are we to make of the statement that God spreads out the sky like a canopy or tent (Isaiah 40:22)?<em>

    It’s a simile; a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds.
    Metal can be hammered out and spread out.  Go watch a blacksmith at work.

    Elsewhere in the Old Testament, the image of “bronze” heavens is used to describe unremitting drought

    Job 37.18 isn’t speaking of how the sky appears in a drought.  It’s quite the opposite;  God is revealing his glory in the firmament here.

    <em>“Firmament was a favorite word of Hebrew writers when they wished to surround an incident with the atmosphere of the majestic presence of the creator”
    -Harper’s Bible Dictionary

  39. beaglelady - #1233

    December 26th 2009

    </em>Canopies and tents aren’t hard.  What are we to make of the fact that God will “roll up the heavens” like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4)?  Hard domes can’t be rolled up like a scroll.</em>

    No, God could never figure out how to do that.  He spread it out but can’t roll it back up.

    You will notice that the words “sun” and “moon” do not occur in Genesis 1, and that is because Moses is not speaking of the sun and moon in terms of their “cosmic” identity as astral bodies in outer space, far beyond earth’s atmosphere (a concept foreign to him); rather, he speaks of them in terms of their “functional” identity as lights in earth’s sky.

    Well, the sun is the sun and the moon is the moon. It’s obvious that these lights refer to the sun and the moon and they are set in the firmament.  That’s my point—they are set in the firmament along with the stars.  Perhaps the originals burned out right away (made in China?) and had to be replaced. 

    Finally, as I have said many times, it would take something pretty strong to hold back the waters above the firmament.

  40. beaglelady - #1234

    December 26th 2009

    oops, pls replace comment #1232 with the following:

    what are we to make of the statement that God spreads out the sky like a canopy or tent (Isaiah 40:22)?

    It’s a simile; a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds.
    Metal can be hammered out and spread out.  Go watch a blacksmith at work.

    Elsewhere in the Old Testament, the image of “bronze” heavens is used to describe unremitting drought

    Job 37.18 isn’t speaking of how the sky appears in a drought.  It’s quite the opposite;  God is revealing his glory in the firmament here.

    “Firmament was a favorite word of Hebrew writers when they wished to surround an incident with the atmosphere of the majestic presence of the creator”
    -Harpers Bible Dictionary

  41. Martin Rizley - #1251

    December 27th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    Regarding Job 37:18, the immediate context indicates that we are dealing with a description of a drought in summer.  Look at the preceding verse, which is translated in the NIV as follows:  “You swelter in your clothes when the land lies hushed under the south wind.”  The south wind is the hot, drying wind that blows up from Africa, baking the landscape, causing people to swelter in their clothes, and transforming the sky into what appears to be a cloudless, hard, hammered out mirror of cast bronze.  Clearly, the language here is poetic; one can see a pseudo-scientific assertion here about the physical structure of the sky only by importing that idea into the text from one’s prior assumptions regarding ANE cosmology. 
    Regarding Isaiah 34:4, obviously God can “roll up like a scroll” a hard dome sky if He wishes to do so by altering the sky’s “hardness” into the flexible consistency of parchment paper; but it seems to me that a more reasonable explanation of these conflicting images is to realize that neither image is to be taken literally.  Both descriptions are poetic descriptions by masters of simile and metaphor.

  42. beaglelady - #1253

    December 27th 2009

    The sky doesn’t appear to be a mirror of cast bronze in a drought.  The heavenly sea can still be seen above the firmament.  It’s just the sky’s hardness that is compared that that of a cast mirror.

    Listen to this, Job;
    stop and consider God’s wonders.

    Do you know how God controls the clouds
    and makes his lightning flash?

    Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
    those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

    You who swelter in your clothes
    when the land lies hushed under the south wind,

    can you join him in spreading out the skies,
    hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
     
     
    -Job 37:14-18 (NIV)
       
     
       
    My HarperCollins Study Bible, in its comment on Job 37:18 says,
    “The Hebrew word for skies or firmament implied an object that was beaten out like metal, hence hard. Windows allowed rain to fall.

  43. beaglelady - #1254

    December 27th 2009

    (Continuing…)

    Note that the firmament is considered to be hard even when it is raining like mad: 
       
       

    Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,

    to water a land where no man lives,
    a desert with no one in it,

    to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?

       
    -Job 38:25-27 (NIV)
       
    God ends the drought by cutting channels through the firmament so the rain can fall to earth!
       
    <hr>
       
    Finally, at the end of the day, the firmament still divides the waters above from the waters below, no matter what it looks like or what it is made of.  It’s still a barrier, according to the OT. 
    The heavenly bodies are set in the firmament and the heavenly sea is ABOVE the firmament.

  44. Martin Rizley - #1259

    December 28th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    When Moses warns Israel in Deuteronomy 28:23 that God will send them drought for disobeying His covenant, He doesn’t say to them, “God will send you drought,” but rather, “The sky over your head will be as bronze.”  In what sense will it be as bronze?”  He means that it will be hard and impermeable as bronze, not allowing the passage of rain the earth.  But is the sky as hard as bronze all the time, in Moses’ view?  Is it always impermeable?  No; obviously not; for if the people obey, Moses says, God will “open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty.”  That is the opposite of the sky being as “bronze” over them..  The language is therefore, a poetic description of how God on the one hand “stops up” the skies by making them impermeable, and sometimes opens them, so the rain can fall.  Does that mean the Hebrews did not realize that rain was stored in clouds?  No, they knew that the rain was stored in the clouds, and did not have to be retained by some hard, impermeable barrier (Prov. 16:5, 25:14).  The problem is that modern scholars do not allow the Hebrews the literary skill to use simile and metaphor in describing the changing phases of nature.

  45. Gordon J. Glover - #1261

    December 28th 2009

    “The problem is that modern scholars do not allow the Hebrews the literary skill to use simile and metaphor in describing the changing phases of nature.”

    Modern scholars assume, and rightly so, that the Hebrews would have shared the same cosmology as their immediate neighbors.  So when they see obvious descriptions of the ancient near-eastern cosmos, they don’t attempt to wiggle out of it by twisting the scriptures—and putting words into Moses’ or Job’s mout.

    The only means by which the Hebrews could have obtained a more advanced cosmological picture than the surrounding cultures was for God to reveal it to them.  And if God did revealed to them a different cosmology, one that was more up-to-date than was commonly believed in the ANE, then certaily we would see that in Scripture.  But we don’t.  When it comes to the structure, function, or formational history of the cosmos, we only see the Hebrews in lock-step with the surrounding cultures.

    Your endless special pleading only shows that you are not reading the text naturally.  If you really honored the Word of God, you would let it speak to us on its own terms and stop forcing it to support your pre-conceived notions of what revelation should look like.

  46. Martin Rizley - #1262

    December 28th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    As far as the sun and moon being located as “iights” in the firmament between the waters above and the waters below, that makes perfect sense when we understand that the Hebrews frequently described the natural world phenomenolgically, as it appears to the eye.  It is clear that in Genesis 1, Moses is speaking about the sun, moon, and stars in terms of what they are in relation to the earth, and in that relation, they are “lights in the sky.”  What they are in themselves—hot balls of gas in outer space—was not his concern, nor was it a concept that entered into his thinking.  All he knew was that, in terms of their function, the sun, moon, and stars are “lights in the sky,” and therefore, it is no error for him to locate them in the expanse where the birds fly, for that is indeed where they function as “lights” in relation to the earth.  We ourselves speak of the “stars in the sky”—knowing full well that scientifically, there are no stars in the sky.  That is where we place the stars, however, when we describe them according to their functional role and identity.

  47. beaglelady - #1263

    December 28th 2009

    But is the sky as hard as bronze all the time, in Moses’ view?

    The firmament doesn’t soften up from rain, as I have pointed out. 
    As we have seen, in Job 38:25-27 God ends the drought by cutting channels through the firmament so the rain can fall to earth!  Cutting a channel only makes sense if the firmament is thought to be solid.

    The firmament has windows which may be open or shut.  Do you want me to point out the texts that mention this?

    Finally, at the end of the day, the firmament still divides the waters above from the waters below, no matter what it looks like or what it is made of.  It’s still a barrier, according to the OT.
    The heavenly bodies are set in the firmament and the heavenly sea is ABOVE the firmament.

    Is this true or not?

  48. Martin Rizley - #1264

    December 28th 2009

    Gordon,
    “Modern scholars assume, and rightly so, that the Hebrews would have shared the same cosmology as their immediate neighbors.”  Can you justify this statement?  What proof do you have that the Hebrews shared the elaborate cosmological views of other cultures?  You speak as if there were only two alternatives:  either they shared the cosmological views of their neighbors or held to a more “advanced” cosmology.  There is a third alternative, and that is that the Hebrews did not hold to any developed cosmology.  In that case, it would be wrong to impute to them the errors of the Babylonians, for example, for to do so would be to ignore the intent of their descriptions of nature,  which was not to assert a particular cosmology but to describe the natural world around them according to language of appearance, or with the highly metaphorical language of poetry, which is patently obvious in the Psalms and in passages like Isaiah 40.  It seems to me that the vehemence with which people insist the Hebrew Scriptures teaches erroneous ANE cosmology is “agenda driven;” if the Bible can be shown to be in error about cosmology, then it may also be in error about human origins.

  49. Martin Rizley - #1277

    December 28th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    There is no question that God made the firmament to divide the waters above from the waters below—that point is not in dispute, for Genesis 1 affirms that plainly.  The question is, what does the Bible teach about the physical nature of the firmament.  Does the Bible teach dogmatically that the physical nature of the firmament is literally that of a hard dome?  Or is the “dome” imagery simply one of several images the Bible uses to describe the sky above us.  I once wrote a poem in which I described clouds floating in the “cupola” of heaven.  My use of the word cupola indicates nothing about my cosmology—simply that, on that lovely evening, the sky appeared to me to be like the cupola of a cathedral.  Moreover, to my knowledge, the Bible never speaks of a heavenly “sea” above the firmament.  It speaks of God storing waters in His “upper chambers,” but it doesn’t say in what form those waters are stored—whether in the form of water vapor or ice crystals or a liquid sea.  The Hebrews simply knew that God stored a lot of water above their heads and above the expanse which He created for the birds to fly in; and they knew that from time to time He opened up that storehouse and let the rain fall.

  50. beaglelady - #1280

    December 28th 2009

    Martin,

    Does it not say that the heavenly bodies are set in the firmament and that the waters above are ABOVE the firmament?

  51. Martin Rizley - #1301

    December 29th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    Have you never heard a person exclaim, when looking up into a clear sky on a dark night, “Look!  The sky is full of stars tonight.”  But, when you analyze that statement scientifically, it is totally false, for technically speaking, the nearest star is light years from the earth, and the changing movements of clouds on our planet cannot bring the stars any nearer.  Moreover, were a single star were to draw near to our earth and enter its atmosphere (an impossibility, of course), the earth would be instantly burned to a cinder long before the star ever got that close.  How then can earth’s sky be said to be “full” of stars?  Wouldn’t that place the stars below fhe stratosphere, where they cannot possibly be?  Answer those questions, and you will understand why it is no error for the writer of Genesis to speak of God placing His “light bearers” in the firmament of heaven,  in that expanse that God created the separate the waters below from the waters stored in His “upper chambers.”  That statement is no more in error than when we ourselves speak of earth’s sky being “full of stars,” as long as you keep in mind the phenomenological character of the description.

  52. peter Enns - #1319

    December 29th 2009

    Martin,

    You are making a common error. We use figures of speech all the time, but we know they are figures of speech because of our knowledge of the cosmos. Ancient peoples had no such check and balance. When ancient people talked about the sun rising, they believed it to be physically the case. No other option was open to them.

  53. Martin Rizley - #1333

    December 29th 2009

    Dr. Enns,
    Don’t you think it’s possible for people to realize their ignorance concerning the precise nature of different features in the cosmos, without having the advantage of more advanced knowledge of the cosmos—and therefore, choose to describe those feature (the precise nature of which they are admittedly ignorant) in terms of how those things appear?  As Francis Anderson says in his commentary on Job 37:18, “Since the sky seems firm and solid to a viewer on earth, the poetic comparison with a molten mirror should not be spoilt by introducing quarrels about its scientific accuracy.  The Hebrews were fully aware that the structure of the heavens was much more complex than that of an inverted bowl!”  In support of what Anderson says about the Hebrews’ awareness of the heaven’s complexity,  take the statement of the psalmist in Psalm 104:3—“He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters.”  Can we be so sure the psalmist believed that God literally laid down beams in the sky?  What then of the verse that follows, which is about God making the clouds His chariot and walking on “the wings of the wind’?  How do you distinguish between statements that are literally factual, and statements that are poetic?

  54. Martin Rizley - #1337

    December 29th 2009

    Beaglelady,
    There is another possibility regarding how we are to understand the light bearers that God places in the “firmament of the heavens,” and that is that Moses may be referring back to the heavens God created in verse 1, rather than to the heavens He created in verses 6-8 to divide the waters from the waters.  That the heavens of verse 1 are distinct from the heavens of verses 6-8 is evident from the fact that verse 2 begins with a “waw consecutive” which indicates sequential action.  After God created the heavens and the earth, the earth lay for a time in darknes, “without form and void.”  Then, in verses 6-8, God creates a spread out expanse to separate the waters from the waters.  Oswald Allis points out that several words in Genesis 1 are used in diverse ways—the words “day” (which can refer either to the period of light or to an entire creative day with a morning and an evening); “earth” (which can refer either to the planet earth or to the dry land in distinction from the seas.  Therefore, the “firmament of the heavens” in which God placed His light bearers may be the original heavens created in verse 1, rather the spread out expanse that separates the waters below from the waters above.

  55. Hector - #1388

    December 30th 2009

    martin:

    “Gordon,
    Modern scholars assume, and rightly so, that the Hebrews would have shared the same cosmology as their immediate neighbors.”  Can you justify this statement?  What proof do you have that the Hebrews shared the elaborate cosmological views of other cultures?”

    Well hebrew’s closest civilizations were:

    -Mesopotamia
    -Sumer
    -Babylon
    -Canaan
    -Egypt
    -Greece

    Mesopotamia, sumer, babylon share the idea that men were created from clay, especially first three share concepts of flood, water, sky domes, etc.  Actually one of the genesis version resembles more mesopotamian’s myth and the other version resembles more other sumerian or babylonian myths.

    Now certainly you don’t expect literal word by word likeness between all the ancient creation myths. Even genesis has only several hundred words so is difficult that it be exactly the same across all myths. But for example in mesoamerica aztecs or mayans, don’t remember, believed that men were made out of corn. Now that’s something different. But hebrews as mesopotamians as sumerians as in babylon all they created man from clay. Not very original.

  56. Hector - #1389

    December 30th 2009

    (cont)

    http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/mukto-mona/Articles/brent_meeker/cosmology.htm

    here’s a list of several cosmologys, I agree it’s not a page from the biggest authority but it’s late and don’t have the energy to search deeper. But I’m 100% percent sure that the answer for your question:

    Hebrews would have shared the same cosmology as their immediate neighbors.”  Can you justify this statement?

    will be: Yes it can be justified.

    Providing that you use common sense on defining what is “the same”. (I’m so sure that you’ll argue that if it’s not equal word by word can’t be the same).

    Of course if you were able to make a really long argument saying that the “lights"mentioned in genesis ARE NOT the moon and the sun (that’s when i started to wonder how sun and moon were created), and really got stuck in the meaning and sense of 1 word “firmament”. And even you were sure without doubt what Moses, Job, and God exactly wanted to say, I don’t expect that the resemblances and common places in all creation myths at the region will be clear to you.

  57. Hector - #1390

    December 30th 2009

    cont

    By the way martin, you demanded proof that origin that cosmology and cosmogony knowledge were shared (Can you justify this statement?  What proof do you have that the Hebrews shared the elaborate cosmological views of other cultures?”).

    Well Bible is not the only ancient document from the past. Your proof resides in the several ancient documents that are being founded and translated.

    So you can say those documents are false. Or as i say before most probably you’ll say ” Hey mesopotamian’s god and hebrew’s gods (in one version), god (in other version) did some things the same way. But did way more things differently, so it doesn’t mean anything and we can’t take anything valuable from it”

  58. Martin Rizley - #1431

    December 30th 2009

    Hector,
    I’m not denying some type of connection between the Bible and other ANE writings; I’m simply saying that we must be careful not to assume that the Hebrews held to concepts that were held by a neighboring culture, simply because the two cultures use terms or descriptions that are formally similar.  Similarity of language does not prove identity of concept.  For example, the fact that Genesis 1 speaks of God making a “raqia”—a thin, spread out layer of “something“—to divide the waters from the waters, doesn’t mean the Hebrew prophets held to the raqia being literally a “hard dome”  simply because a neighboring culture specified that it was.  If both cultures are working from an earlier tradition common to both, it would stand to reason that the Hebrews, God’s chosen nation, would preserve the original, simple concept in its pure form, whereas the surrounding pagan cultures—interested as they were in astrology—would develop from the original, divinely revealed concept the more elaborate concept of the raqia being literally a hard dome.  The formal similarity of language and description does not prove identity of concept.

  59. Martin Rizley - #1433

    December 30th 2009

    Hector,
    As evidence of what I’m talking about, consider the similarities between the teaching of Genesis 2 regarding the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and that of the Babylonian and Sumerian creation myths   Genesis 2 speaks of a single river originating in Eden which splits into four rivers, among them the Tigris and Euphrates—a simple, unembellished statement.  According to the Babylonians and Sumerians, however, the Tigris and Euphrates were produced as the result of a conflict among the gods.  When one god was defeated and split in half, the Euphrates flowed from one eye and the Tigris from the other.  Which account gives evidence of embellishment and elaboration?  Clearly, the Genesis narrative preserves in its original form an earlier tradition, whereas the Babylonian and Sumerian narratives represent a mythical elaboration and corruption of that same tradition.  As one writer puts it, “In the Ancient Near East, the rule is that simple accounts or traditions give rise (by accretion and embellishment) to elaborate legends, rather than the reverse.”

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